Investing

Eve Picker: [00:00:07] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo in order to build better for everyone.

Eve: [00:00:41] Today I’m interviewing Franchell Abdalla, a minority in every sense of the word. She is black, a woman, and a real estate developer. But that’s not stopping her, not for one little moment. Franchell only recently launched her development company, Be Good Development. And yet she has her sights set on an incredibly complex and rich real estate project. She assembled an astounding team to win a significant request for proposals issued by the city of Tulsa in Oklahoma. She won and has been grappling with a 100,000 square foot foundry building, planning its repurposed life and working on the legal and financial structure. There are plenty of setbacks, as there always are in projects like this, but to Franchell it is all a joyful challenge. There is lots to love in my conversation with Franchell. Please listen in.

Eve: [00:01:54] Hello, Franchell, I’m really delighted to have you join me today.

Franchell Abdulla: [00:01:57] It’s great to be here, Eve. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Eve: [00:02:01] Good. So how does a sociology major become a real estate developer? I’d really like to hear about your journey.

Franchell: [00:02:09] Yeah, absolutely. I would say in a very non-traditional, kind of circuitous way. I started off really, as a pre-med major in college, and so as a pre-med major, I thought, you know, like most people, I’m going to graduate, go to med school and then my focus was really on becoming a Foreign Service officer, wanted to do Peace Corps and the like. And so, started off, but, you know, never thought about sociology, didn’t know anything about sociology, started taking classes and was hooked, right? So sociology and then cultural anthropology were things that I focused on as an undergraduate. And really, just the study of people and cultures and societies is what really gave me this kind of foundational understanding of the importance of community and community building in real estate development. I landed in real estate in a way that’s very non-traditional, right? I needed a job. I just had my second little one. She was six weeks old and there was an opportunity to work at the Housing Authority in Omaha. And so. I literally took a temp job on a whim because we needed to feed them and went and just fell in love.

Franchell: [00:03:19] I’ve always had a love of the built environment, and I think my mother probably would have been an architect if she had the language for it. But she went into computer science engineering instead. But she was an artist and a very analytical mind. And so, we were like really steeped in that. And so when I get to the housing Authority, it was really a merging of all of those experiences I had had along the way. It was both built environment it was just kind of pragmatic approach to development and my understanding of development, it was the practical application of really learning how to work through grants and fund raising and capital improvement projects. And then at the same time, it was just undergirded by the love of community and how do you create opportunities in communities. So, it wasn’t a direct path. I didn’t even know what real estate development was when I got into it. But I definitely am so grateful for the way that it is, it’s kind of unfolding.

Eve: [00:04:17] Isn’t it great the way you can find a path unexpectedly and fall in love with it? It’s really great.

Franchell: [00:04:23] Absolutely. That’s why I love the story of Iris Apfel, where she talks about, she is like this accidental icon. I feel like I’m the accidental developer very much in the same way.

Eve: [00:04:34] The accidental developer. That’s what we’ll have to call this podcast. Okay.

Franchell: [00:04:36] Yes.

Eve: [00:04:39] So then you launched Be Good Development Partners. What led you to launch that? That’s a long journey from the Housing Authority too, and when was that?

Franchell: [00:04:51] So I launched fully in 2018 as Be Good Development Partners, and it really initially was called Transformative Community Development. It was a way that I was consulting for the Housing Authority and for the city of Omaha while I was working at the Housing Authority. And so, once I transitioned to Tulsa, I wanted to be able to move TCF with me and thought, you know, it’s a, it needs a rename, right? It’s time to rebrand. I wanted something fresh and new, and I really grew up with a very large family and something that my grandmother always talked about, you know, was like being like this silent kind of goodness, right? At the block level. My grandmother didn’t go past sixth grade, and so she was kind of like this rock on our block, right? when I was a little kid. And she always had a saying that was be good. Every time we would talk to her or leave or have a conversation with her, she always ended with, well, be good. And so, for me, that was a way to kind of like honor her legacy and honor her. And so, when I came to Tulsa and decided that it was time to also go into development, which was also accidental, by the way, Be Good seemed fitting as a name, so Be Good Development Partners kind of was born out of that.

Eve: [00:06:04] So what is your philosophy then as a real estate developer?

Franchell: [00:06:09] I would say my philosophy is really about transforming communities from the inside out, really looking at what are ways that we can create goodness by being small and intentional and impactful in the spaces that we reside in? How can we think about the communities that we’re developing and as a neighbor rather than an outsider? And then, how do we create this real, not only catalytic, I think, but disruptive change from a systems level? And so Be Good really is that amalgamation of those things. It’s how do we create good? How do we ensure that there is long, impactful good? And then, you know, at the end of it, how are we just being in community, showing up in those ways in order to be good?

Eve: [00:06:56] And then I have to ask, so, your portfolio, when did you launch? It’s been a while.

Franchell: [00:07:03] It’s been 2018 since I came here, but I literally launched in 2021 with the Evans Venture Project. Oh, so very young.

Eve: [00:07:13] Very, very new firm.

Eve: [00:07:15] Yes. And why Tulsa?

Franchell: [00:07:17] So, I was initially relocated to Tulsa for a job, so I was kind of poached out of Omaha doing some of the work that I’d been doing in community and, you know, attracted to come here. So, I worked for a small nonprofit, and my goal was to really raise about $13 million and do a full-blown capital campaign for our Child Abuse Network, which is a small nonprofit focused on like childhood intervention and prevention around child abuse and neglect. And so it was in a very different space that I had operated in. But it was kind of this opportunity that I couldn’t pass up. There was a great leader at the helm of it at the time that had come. She’d been a city councilor. As soon as I came here, I really believed in the vision. I really believed in, like, what the direction was going to be for the organization. And so I just decided it was time, you know? And so we uprooted and came to Tulsa, and six weeks later she left the organization. It ended up in hindsight, it was probably one of the most incredible opportunities that ever happened because it forced me to dig in and figure out where I was at, start to break apart what is this community? Who are some of the key stakeholders in the community around this particular issue? What are other communities that I’d be interested in? And I got an opportunity to really raise and recruit money and then do the construction feasibility and build out. So, I was able to kind of like lean into all these different spaces in a very unique way. And then we stayed, you know, great friends and stuff. So, she continues to be a mentor, even though she works for the city of Tulsa now.

Eve: [00:08:53] Interesting. So, do you have any projects under your belt yet for Be Good?

Franchell: [00:08:59] So projects under my belt for Be Good, again, like I said, I do a lot of development consultant, so working with the small ten-acre project, it’s really an agrihood kind of project I’m very excited about where it’ll be a really an arts and culture enclave, so it’ll be a small creative co-working space and venue. It’ll be some Air BnB cabins, and then it’ll also be a small, tiny home village for artists to come and do residencies and fellowships in the arts. So very excited about that. Um, I would say we’re also working on a very, very, very, very cool project that I’ll be heading out to look at today that’s really focused on our large, unhoused population. And so, it’s also a village concept looking at what are, like, how do we insert supportive services and wrap-around supports for people who are chronically unhoused? And its master planning that site. And so being able to pull together, you know, a small all-female team is like really exciting for me on that. And it’s 23 acres. And then of course, the one that we’re probably the most well-known for that really launched us is the Evans-Fintube project in historic Greenwood. And so those are some of the projects that I’m working on.

Eve: [00:10:16] And that’s a really big one too, right?

Franchell: [00:10:18] It’s a huge project, not in terms of its footprint, although it is an 11-acre site and it’s a historic mixed-use. It would look to change the Oklahoma Ironworks into commercial retail community anchored commerce as well as some retail and breweries. But then it would also create hospitality as well as some additional office space.

Eve: [00:10:41] So you’re glossing over these, but really, these are unusual, unusually large and complex projects for a small star-up real estate developer.

Franchell: [00:10:52] Yes.

Eve: [00:10:53] You know, typically you hear, well, I flipped a couple of houses and now I’m looking at a fourplex. So, you just went from nothing to everything, Right?

Franchell: [00:11:05] Right. If you’re just going to go, go all the way in. Right.

Eve: [00:11:55] And especially through Covid, which has been really horrendously difficult in the construction industry. And borrowing money. So, any of these projects yours or are they mostly consulting projects?

Franchell: [00:11:20] The first project that I talked about with Agrihood, I am an equity partner and then the developer on that project, the same with Evans-Fintube would also be a part of the ownership group as well. And that would be my project.

Eve: [00:11:33] Okay, that’s fabulous. They are big and complex projects. So where does your inspiration come from and how do you find these projects and does history count?

Franchell: [00:11:46] Um, history always counts, right? If we’re going to be thinking about how we build for the future, history is critically important, but I think the projects, they come out of where I am, you know, the folks that I’m working with, architects, planners, construction folks, community members, my neighbors. I think they come out of my love for this place. Um, seeing things that are currently missing in either the skyline or the landscape that that we deserve to have injected back into community. And I think they come out of this just passion for making sure that what we build is not just meaningful, but it’s sustainable and it’s built and designed and led by and owned by folks who look like people that come from the places and spaces I come from. So that’s kind of what it’s born out of.

Eve: [00:13:40] Let’s talk about the Evans-Fintube project, which is the big one in in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and just explain what is that?

Franchell: [00:12:55] Evans-Fintube, it was a foundry. And so, it was a site for one of the largest kind of steel and metal manufacturing facilities in the state of Oklahoma, let alone Tulsa. But it was established in about 1901, and it was originally Bethlehem Steel and Supply. And so much of the steel that’s in the skyscrapers that are in the downtown skyline came out of this particular foundry. And so, between 1901, which is really pre-statehood in Oklahoma all the way to about 1961, this building operated and it was a series of about 20 buildings that were on 22 acres of land. Well, to the north of us now is the BMX international headquarters that occupies 11. And then Evans-Fintube, which is the only originally standing building, is on the remaining southern edge, which is 11 acres as well.

Franchell: [00:13:52] But what’s really unique, I think, about this particular site is that it tells the story of Tulsa. It is Tulsa. Tulsa as we know it. It talks about the story of philanthropy, Bethlehem Steel and Supply, which then became known as the Oklahoma Ironworks Building. It is sitting on 11 acres of historic Greenwood. And what that means in terms of the 1921 Tulsa race massacre, the building itself sits on top of two Cherokee allotments, which is interesting because Tulsa, yeah, Tulsa is the largest reservation in Oklahoma. And so, we’re still in Indian territory. And this building kind of is a line of demarcation for that. And then the southern edge is actually the original block 49 of the city of Tulsa. And so, it is an actual Creek Freedmen settlement.

Franchell: [00:14:42] And so it’s all this unique complexity and beauty of Tulsa, both, you know, good as we know it, right? The oil boom, the art deco buildings that have gone up, you know, the story of, you know, small town boomers that come and build their livings. And then it’s also the complexity of the forced migration into Indian territory, being on a reservation, re-allotment of land. We’re bounded by Highway 244, so it speaks to eminent domain and what that did in communities of color. And then again, it’s in historic Greenwood. And so, when we think about what happened in 1921 and the Tulsa race massacre, this building actually sits as a backdrop to that experience. And so, while most of Greenwood burned in 1921, this building was never scorched. And so, you know, we really feel like it’s an opportunity to not just reclaim space but reassert the right to have space into the future. And so, for us, it’s really this interesting weaving of a Tulsa narrative that I think has the potential to speak to not just Tulsans, but I think The Globe. And so that’s what’s exciting about the project. It’s a very unique project.

Eve: [00:15:53] I’m watching your face and I’m seeing your excitement. And most people would run screaming from this sort of complexity, but it looks to me like you run right into it. Yeah, yeah, That’s pretty fascinating. So, what is the building? How big is it and what are you turning it into?

Franchell: [00:16:12] So the building is 100,000ft² and it’s simply beautiful. It has this incredible layout. And because it was a foundry, I mean, there are lots of, like, steel and brick and glass. And so, we’re going to be reskinning it in that way. But what we’re looking at is having a 54-room boutique hotel. And really that’s a tribute and an honor to J.B. Stratford, who was one of the, I would say, singular, most well-known folks who had a hotel in Tulsa at the time of the height of 1921. It was burned to the ground. And so, we want to be able to pay homage to that and rebuild that with inside the footprint. And then there will be about 25,000ft² of localized retail. So again, really kind of restitching that thought and that ethos around Black Wall Street being rebuilt, creating these opportunities for local businesses and small entrepreneurs to come into this space and that retail space and have pop-ups to be able to have shops, to be able to really make their mark and create a new market for commerce and cultural tourism. And then there’s a small, I would say it’s about 14,000ft², of creative office. And so it’s like, how do we encourage folks who are into tech, who are into arts and culture, music production, video production, to be able to come and be housed there? So it’s a producers lab is really what it is in terms of creative office and then again, a food hall concept, but not your food hall of the 2000s, really more of a chefs collective, where it’s a curated list of local restaurateurs and local chefs that have pop-up menus, provide a variety of different offerings to folks at our site as well as to the BMX and then also throughout the downtown corridor. So that’s the building.

Eve: [00:18:10] So in other words, as complex as its history.

Franchell: [00:18:14] It could get. It is actually.

Eve: [00:18:17] It’s totally wonderful. So, you won an RFP. The city owns this project. Tell me about that. For those of our listeners, you’re a Black real estate developer, which is in itself extremely unusual. But you won this, unfortunately very rare, but you won this RFP from the city. Probably, there was some, you know, rather traditional developers who went up against you. Right?

Franchell: [00:18:45] There were, there were lots. There were actually 12 that we competed against.

Eve: [00:18:50] Wow.

Franchell: [00:18:51] And that was exciting. So, we started the RFQ originally in April of 2021. And so, we had been in that process for a while. And so, we went through RFQ and out of the 12 developers or development teams that submitted, it was actually whittled down to four. And out of the four, I was on two teams and so I was on one team as a development consultant and then one kind of leading this small, localized, ragtag team of folks. And at that point it became public that I was on two. And so, I made a decision that if there was ever going to be an opportunity to launch, this might be the way to launch.

Eve: [00:19:35] Yes, indeed.

Franchell: [00:19:36] And so decided to lead that team from RFQ into the RFP. And then we were in the RFP for about a year, and I was able to assemble not just a local team that was really strong that I love, right? Because we have a lead project engineer that is African American. Our lead project architect runs a small architecture firm, young African American woman. The head of our construction, while it’s a large construction entity, our project director is an African American woman. The person who leads the minority contractor Academy for Trade Partner Development and Skill Development is an African American woman. We were able to really start to identify these strengths in community that oftentimes get overlooked but could be elevated given the opportunity. And so, you know, our mantra was this, you know, we have an opportunity to create and really expand local capacity, leveraging national talent. And so our construction company is a national firm. We have a design consultant, is a national firm. Our historic preservation consultant is also a national firm.

Franchell: [00:20:50] And so we’re able to use those skill sets, that capacity to be able to bolster what we have at the local level. So once this development project is over, that capacity stays in community and can only grow and evolve. And so that has really been the gift of being the leader of this team, is being able to see that flourish. Stayed in the RFP for a year, went through a lot of series of, you know, fits and starts in that process because there were many people that didn’t want to see it maybe progress as far as it did. But eventually, you know, after we started, we were awarded May 10th of 2022, the RFP, and it was announced. And then since it was announced, we have continued to kind of work through a series of both requirements and challenges. Community engagement. I really credit community to ensuring that we won not because we weren’t the most qualified with community backing, but we were the most qualified team with the greatest amount of community engagement and support. And so, I’m very, very proud of that because we are a community team with, I think, national expertise. And so, we just continue to work on that. We have definitely faced challenges as it relates to this project.

Eve: [00:22:12] Tell me about the challenges, because I’ve been through an RFP process like this as well, and we had the architecture team drop out at the most awful moment when I think we would have been selected. So it was, you know, I understand that because it’s such a long process, it’s a pretty fragile process.

Franchell: [00:22:32] It is. It is. And I think those are the lessons that you learn when you get into this space, right? It’s the things that you don’t know that can happen. And so as we’ve progressed through the project, have had lots of iterations around how to properly set up the LLCs, what are the roles and responsibilities, what is the role of the city, right? Because the city is the actual owner of the land. But there is an economic development entity that has actually managed and facilitated the process even though they don’t own it. So, we kind of have two constituencies that we have to support and ensure that they feel comfortable with us. The project team, the project team has stayed intact. We did have one shift. We previously had someone who was maybe a managing member of an entity moved from being an employee to becoming his own kind of developer. And so that shift caused a great amount of concern in our team to the point where this kind of economic development entity said, well, you know what, no, you no longer have the capacity, you no longer have the skill set that left when this individual left. And so we want to stop the process, put it on hold and not award you the RFP.

Franchell: [00:23:47] What it is teaching me is that I never understood how political the development process is. Right? You can love a great building, love a great space, believe in the possibility of a project, but understanding the complexity and the politics around how things get built is equally important. And it’s also showing us, I think, as a team, a collective team, because I will say, while that individual left, no one on my team has dropped out in the two years that we’ve been in this, which is a testament to their own passion and commitment to this. But what I love about it is it’s also showing that there are tough times where, as women and as developers of color, in particular, you know, being a black female developer, developing in a space that there are no black female developers. I’m the first black developer to ever make it this far in an RFP in the city and absolutely the first female developer to do that. It is creating conversations around the discomfort of seeing me show up in the space that traditionally we have not occupied. And so, I love that, right? I love that. The room doesn’t have to be prepared for me. I can figure out a way to create a new table, but I want to have those uncomfortable conversations about why it’s necessary that I’m in the room. Necessary, why folks who look like us are in those spaces. We bring a very different view to development and one that’s missing and necessary in the future of how cities are built and created.

Eve: [00:25:28] Right. And there are challenges with financing, too, which may be.

Franchell: [00:25:33] My goodness.

Eve: [00:25:34] Are they political or are they just inbred? I don’t know.

Franchell: [00:25:38] Right. And are they both?

Eve: [00:25:40] Are they both.

Franchell: [00:26:41] You know, political at the local level, right? Like did you use a local bank? Who got the local construction contract that’s going to have the depository, you know? And then at a national level, like these changes in capital markets, inflation, rising interest rates, I mean, they’ve increased our project budget by about 20 million in the first phase. And so, to have a project that went from $41 million in the first phase to $68 million in the first phase, I mean changes all the numbers, right?

Eve: [00:26:12] And so now I’m building a project where it’s exactly the same, a 50% increase. It’s crazy. It’s been a crazy couple of years, Franchell, really crazy.

Franchell: [00:26:23] It has been. I mean, whether it’s lending requirements have changed, how you’re being scrutinized through underwriting, right? And there’s something to be said when you’re managing just numbers and they’re looking at that as a package. And then there’s something to be said when you add on the layer and complexity of the mitigating you as the risk as well. And so, we’ve had to think through that and get creative about reprogramming, building out in stages even within the first phase. And then we’ve had to think more creatively about what type of capital should we attract, whether that’s individual investment, community investment now. What additional federal dollars could be attracted to the project, new markets, tax credits, solar? And then also, you know, is there philanthropic investment that we can look to to fund some of these, like, financing gaps?

Eve: [00:27:14] Right, right. So, do you think all of this is going to be resolved?

Franchell: [00:27:18] You know, development is funny. That’s why I kind of love it. You never, never know, right? We get a notice from partner Tulsa or, excuse me, the development entity that they no longer want to negotiate with us and the project is off. But ultimately, they’re the facilitators of the process, not the owners of it, right? And so I always learned, you know, in real estate, it’s about the buyer and a seller. And so we went to the seller, which is the city of Tulsa, right? And had a conversation with the mayor. And what I recognize is that there is a desire to come to a common ground. What is the middle? Right? Because we could have polar views on how we get this done, right? You know, the economic development entity and I might not see eye to eye, but where is the middle space in which both of our kind of initiatives and goals are achieved? And I’m finding that that’s actually sitting within the city of Tulsa, at the mayor’s level. And so, I am hopeful. We’ve had great conversations about moving the project forward. What are the ways in which we can do that and then what are the ways that we can create a lose-lose and not a win-win, right? Because we’re taught, okay, you want the win-win, we want everyone to win. Well, that’s not possible. How do I lose a thing that I want without changing the nature and character and the integrity of the project and how do they lose a thing that maybe they want in order to ensure that there is partnership on board, that we can move the project to become built? I believe in our administration, challenging as it is at the city level, I believe that the mayor is committed to getting this built and committed to ensuring that the legacy that he leaves is one of like, opportunity for the city of Tulsa. So, I remain hopeful. I’m optimistic by nature.

Eve: [00:29:14] So you don’t see it as a setback. You see it as another challenge, right?

Franchell: [00:29:18] Absolutely. Only challenges get….

Eve: [00:29:31] Only challenges, right. So, I’m going to shift gears a little bit because I met you at a really interesting event. It was a panel discussion that Freddie Mac, of all institutions, invited us to. And I learned a lot about Freddie Mac there. They’re actually a really amazing organization. And one of the things I learned about was that Freddie Mac has started a Develop the Developer academy.

Franchell: [00:29:46] Yes.

Eve: [00:29:47] And that you were the first graduate from their first cohort. So, I was astounded by that. I want to hear what it was like and how they found you.

Franchell: [00:29:59] Yeah, absolutely. So, like you said, Freddie Mac has been an incredible partner. And so, in 2019 going into 2020, Omaha actually launched the first Develop the Developer academy through a CDI called Spark. And because I’m from Omaha, Nebraska, still had really great ties there, learned of the program. I said, well, you know, can I participate? And was selected, went through an application process, was selected, and it went online because of Covid. And so that hybrid opportunity gave us an opportunity to just dig in. I mean, we learned about Proformas at length, the development team, the development process. Who are the, you know, what roles and responsibilities, how do you actually think about equitable neighborhood development? There were a series of panelists exams and through that process I really found the confidence to become a developer, a confidence to launch, right? Because much of my experience has come inside of institutions, nonprofit institutions, the Housing Authority, the municipality and so much of what I know is attributed to them. This is an opportunity for me to say, no, no, no, no, I know some things and support it with some additional learning and expanded networks and resources. I could do this for myself. And so, their whole focus is to create a cadre of really skilled developers of color and those who identify as women to be able to go into community and to begin transforming it.

Franchell: [00:31:36] And so we went through this class, you know, they laid out everything and it was just, um, it unlocked something in me around development to where I didn’t know that I shouldn’t go after an Evan-Fintube, right? Like I felt like, hey, I’m ready to launch. Like, I can figure it out, right? We can build it as it’s flying. And so given the opportunity, once I had graduated from there, I felt like there are so many folks right in Tulsa that are doing incredible work and given the same experience, would create incredible change. And so, I wanted to bring it to Tulsa. Talked with Freddie Mac, talked with Spark about mentorship and kind of helping us form it. And I was working at a CDFI at the time, and they literally were looking to create some type of developer’s academy, more so focused on nonprofits, But we were like, no, no, no, no, this is an opportunity to create like real generational wealth change. And so, we were able to launch it in Tulsa solely focused on BIPOC developers, developers that identify as women, folks from community that really wanted to launch into for-profit development.

Eve: [00:32:46] Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. Really impressive. So, you were obviously a star pupil because you are a star graduate because they invited you onto that panel, which was really pretty fabulous too. So, all of this is amazing. So, what’s next for you Franchell?

Franchell: [00:33:05] To continue moving forward, right? Like continuing to be good, like making change where I can, partnering on projects where I can, leading development projects. Um, you know, being a parent, like running a very solid business, like that’s really what’s next. And so, I’m thinking about ways in which that we can reframe Evans-Fintube. I’m looking at new opportunities in the landscape around redevelopment. Um, I do kind of want to go back to my roots a bit in terms of residential infill and incremental development. And so, kind of, going back to that block level two and four unit that I was doing in Omaha, just as a person living in community. I’d love to see the opportunity emerge where I could consult in other spaces around creating new developer academies. There is something about the mix of information and training and expanded networks and the opportunity to practice that, like really makes a difference in terms of the confidence of developers. You just need an opportunity to launch. And so, to be able to create that or help facilitate that in other communities, I would love that. So that’s really what’s next.

Eve: [00:34:26] Well, I can’t wait to see what’s next. And thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve really thoroughly enjoyed this, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed meeting you. So, best of luck with the Evans-Fintube project.

Franchell: [00:34:38] Thank you. I appreciate that, it was wonderful connecting with you too.

Eve: [00:34:59] I hope you enjoyed today’s guest and our deep dive. You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at RethinkRealEstateforGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. Please support this podcast and all the great work my guests do by sharing it with others, posting about it on social media, or leaving a rating and a review. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on LinkedIn. Even better, if you’re ready to dabble in some impact investing, head on over to smallchange.co where I spend most of my time. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music. And a big thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.