Growing up in a middle-class household in suburban New Jersey, Mark Winkelman decided at an early age, with the encouragement from his interior designer mother, to pursue architecture. To that end he attended and graduated from the Syracuse School of Architecture in 1978. Upon graduation he interned in Phillip Johnson’s highly acclaimed design firm in New York City. While in Johnson’s office he worked on a number of notable high rise office buildings including the gothic PPG Headquarters in Pittsburgh and the iconic postmodern AT&T headquarters in New York City.
After earning his New York State architectural license Mark and his then girlfriend (and now wife) traveled to and worked in Tokyo, Japan for two years. There he came to appreciate the refined visual aesthetic that is uniquely Japanese. The design lessons learned in Japan would deeply inform and influence Mark’s own design work. Perhaps the most important lesson was grasping the importance of putting new work in an historical context.
Upon returning to the States in 1984, Mark partnered with a Syracuse classmate and formed Downtown Design — a boutique architecture and interiors firm based in New York City. For the next 25 years Downtown Design grew and developed a number of specialties including the design of technical media facilities such as recording studios and video edit suites. The firm’s projects also included the restoration and adaptive reuse of historical loft buildings in the creative neighborhoods of Soho and Tribeca in Manhattan. Indeed, one of the loft projects was his family’s own home in a 1894 spice warehouse.
In 2007, Mark and Suzanne bought the complex of historic and vacant factory buildings in Williamsport, PA. According to Mark, the building and their potential was enough to bring him to Williamsport. The Winkelman’s have honored local history with the name “Pajama Factory” and the continuing restoration and preservation of the 100 (plus) year old buildings. According to local history, Weldon’s Pajama Factory was once the largest pajama factory in the world. The site was scouted and used as a model for the 1950’s Broadway play, later the movie, “The Pajama Game,” starring Doris Day and John Raitt. They pondered how to fill the 300,000 sq ft of floor area in a town that has been losing businesses and population for decades.
The Winkelmans opted for a plan much like the one highlighted in Richard Florida’s book “Rise of the Creative Class” that included a mixed-use complex with a 24/7 urban lifestyle which includes live / work lofts, work only studios, supporting retail shops, and community facility spaces. A haven for creative thinkers and incubator businesses was created. Performance and event spaces are available for music, political events, large meetings, tenant / community events. A community outreach, 501-c3, organization which has a well-equipped wood shop, clay studio, bicycle recycle shop, and photography dark room — all of which were brought into the mix by the Winkelmans and are open to the wider community.
Mark strives to maintain a high level of energy and optimism in order to build a Creative Community that will someday serve as a model for the Arts World and for energizing small cities and towns. The adaptive reuse of a building into a mixed-use facility is an established practice in big cities but it is not often seen in towns and smaller cities. The fact that the Pajama Factory located, as it is, in a small city, is beginning to have an outsized and positive effect on how the City of Williamsport perceives itself. Mark and Suzanne understand the importance of being a part of a community-based economy by providing spaces where locally owned small businesses can be developed and benefit from the “Buy Local” movement. The rents are kept incredibly affordable at about 1⁄2 the local rate and 1/10 the rate in New York City, for instance. In his spare time, Mark managed the restoration of his 1970 Triumph GT6 British sports car. He loves sailing, especially blue water cruising. Ceramics, primarily wheel work, is a passion. He also loves traveling with his family — as long as his daughter and son take care of all the arrangements.
Read the podcast transcript here
Eve Picker: [00:00:05] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich, or poor, beautiful, or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo in order to build better for everyone.
Eve: [00:00:41] After a successful career in architecture and design in New York City, Mark Winkelman purchased a 300,000 square foot historic pajama factory. Once the largest pajama factory in the world, the building sat vacant in a small town in central Pennsylvania with a population of just 114,000. The Winkelmans set about filling it one corner at a time with a vision for an affordable and thriving creative hub. 16 years later and 60% complete, the stunning buildings are coming back to life. But there is still more to do. What was Mark’s motivation and what was his thesis and how has it played out? Listen in to learn more.
Eve: [00:01:37] Hello, Mark. It’s great to have you on my show.
Mark: [00:01:39] Good to be here.
Eve: [00:01:40] So the pajama factory, once the largest pajama factory in the country, now belongs to the Winkelmans. You and your wife, Suzanne, which is really a very bold move. How did you stumble upon the pajama factory?
Mark: [00:01:56] I had a partner, I had a bar stool buddy of mine who was a fantastic, is a fantastic woodworker, and he got involved in some real estate in New York City, and I helped him out as an architect. So, we got to know each other and then he lost his interest in New York and moved out to a nearby town, Bloomsburg, with his woodshop and somehow discovered the building. And ultimately, he sold it to me. He knew I was interested in expanding my architectural practice, if you will, to really own and develop a building or a space or become a developer. So, anyway, he sold me the building, in a sense, and I mean, it’s crazy. It’s in the middle of Pennsylvania. I knew nothing about Pennsylvania. I got as far as the Delaware Water Gap, which is a nice place to canoe and hike on the Appalachian Trail but that’s about 200 yards into Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania is a huge state. So anyway, we saw the building, found the building and the building, I mean, if it was in New York, it’s just…
[00:03:13] It would be worth a fortune. Yeah.
[00:03:15] Oh, yeah. And unattainable for me to work on. But here we bought it for nothing because nobody wanted it. I mean, literally a penny on the dollar compared to New York. It didn’t really know what to do with it, except that it had potential. It had all potential.
Eve: [00:03:31] The town it’s in is called Williamsport, right? Williamsport.
[00:03:34] That’s correct.
[00:03:34] And it’s pretty well Central PA. Central North?
Mark: [00:03:37] North Central PA. It’s an hour and a half from Harrisburg, the capital. The closest town is Elmira, New York. You know, it’s …
Eve: [00:03:49] So New York is about a three-hour drive. Pittsburgh’s a 3- or 4-hour drive. Toronto’s a three-hour drive. It’s kind of in the middle of, really in the middle.
Mark: [00:04:00] All the locals here say it’s in the middle, middle of the universe. And I actually call it the middle of nowhere because it’s quite removed and there’s no public transportation. There are challenges but the thing I ultimately like about Williamsport is the fact that it’s isolated. And because it’s isolated, everything is here. And my only experience in the past was suburbia in New Jersey, which is where I grew up, which was vacuous. And New York City, which is exciting. It has everything, but ultimately it becomes very inconvenient. Everything is so convenient in Williamsport. They have a steel industry down the street that produced the beams for the new Tappan Zee Bridge. Huge industry. Right up the street we have a precast, small precast company. And I literally had some pieces precast for the building and dragged them back here on a wagon. You can’t do that in New York, you know. That’s been a remarkable kind of revelation to me. I came here for the building. I came here for the challenge of restoring this historic building. I didn’t care about the town, but I’ve come to really appreciate the town and its surrounding. In fact, we moved out here. Suzy and I have moved out here. And our daughter’s moved out here.
Eve: [00:05:25] And I’ve been lucky enough to see it. It’s wonderful. How big is it?
Mark: [00:05:29] It’s 300,000ft², spread over eight buildings around a lovely little courtyard. It’s ridiculous, it’s so big.
Eve: [00:05:40] And it has a really rich history. I learned that not only was it the largest pajama factory, but Keds were invented there.
Mark: [00:05:48] That’s correct. Largest pajama factory in the world.
Eve: [00:05:52] In the world? Yes.
Mark: [00:05:53] Apparently, apparently. It was before China became a big manufacturer, obviously.
Eve: [00:05:58] And before people stopped wearing pajamas.
Mark: [00:06:00] Well that too, yes, that’s another discussion. But yes, it was originally Lycoming Rubber Company and its history as being part of us rubber is what ultimately warranted listing on the National Register of Historic Places. But as a rubber company, they started in 1883, I think, and they made, basically they dipped wool socks in rubber and gave them to the lumber industry, and that’s what they used to climb around on the logs as they took them down the rivers. That was their start. But then it moved into athletic wear at the turn of the century, the turn of the last century. And they did invent and produce Keds sneakers here. And I think Keds sneakers was introduced in 1916. And the big buildings, we have three big buildings, all connected, which comprises two thirds of the whole 200,000ft² out of the 300,000. I think they were built by Keds, by the Keds business, because the timing was right. And Keds claims accurately that they were the first mass produced sneaker. Converse came out at the same time with their sneakers and, approximately the same time, and Converse claims that they are the first sneaker mass produced, as opposed to the first mass produced sneaker. In other words, Converse got up and going and produced their sneaker before Keds did. But Keds was introduced before Converse.
Mark: [00:07:41] Yeah, I know they’re all fighting. Yeah, it’s neat stuff. So, they were here for 15 years, I guess, and it was early in the depression that they consolidated their operations, their shoe making operations in Connecticut. And they continued to own this building for another 20 years but sublet it out to small shoe making companies and the garment world.
Eve: [00:08:11] So, light industrial. Yeah.
Mark: [00:08:12] Yes, yes. And Weldons, well done Pajamas is the company that grew and ultimately bought the building in 1950. And I will say that we’ve got some examples of their pajamas around. They’re very nice. I mean, not for me, but whatever, they’re very nice. They were well done. But their architectural work on the complex was not well done at all. It’s really terrible.
Eve: [00:08:40] So, now you have the building, right? And I’ve seen it and I know you preserve and honor that history. How did your vision evolve? What did you decide to do, and how long did it take to figure that out?
Mark: [00:08:54] I had a friend of mine in New York who was involved with us from the beginning. Another friend, not the one who introduced me to the building, but a really smart guy. He was in marketing and very thoughtful. And he and I were talking about this, and the original idea was that we would bring Philadelphia and New York artists out here. The property is cheap and inexpensive and it’s neat but that didn’t happen. That was our goal is to bring folks and my buddy, being smart the way he is, he says, you can’t, you need a there there. You need something to exist before you can attract folks. And you have a vision, but they’re not going to come for the vision, they’re going to come for the fact. So, we had a kind of a rough time like, well how’s this happen? The other thing you did that was critical was he and I developed the idea of building a community, and it was the community idea that is the value added for the building. He accurately suggested that if we just try to advertise space based on price, it’s a downward spiral. You got to have something else. And it was community. So, we start to nurture that idea and it’s taken time. It takes a lot of time.
Eve: [00:10:13] So how does your architectural background influence this project? I mean, you you’ve had a long career and probably learned some things in Tokyo where you spent some time.
Mark: [00:10:24] Oh my goodness, yes. Yeah. Well, what is it? I mean, first you need a love of the building and then have confidence that you’re not alone with that love and then respect that. And so, yeah…
Eve: [00:10:41] I want to chime in I saw that respect when I was there because you dismantled, you know, old bathrooms and have reused the beautiful slates as countertops. And I saw even, you know, the shower rods were old bits of metal pipe that had obviously come from somewhere in the building. So, to me, it looks like a building that’s being dismantled a little and sort of shoved back around like a jigsaw puzzle into something slightly different.
Mark: [00:11:10] Yeah, a little steampunk, a little recycle, little homegrown, all of that. We do it all in-house. I think that’s kind of key is that that we’ve developed an in-house team. You can’t specify recycle as an architect. You know, it’s, but if you got a pipe and you got a pipe threader, you can make something up as you go. And we’ve been doing a lot of that. And I like that. That’s part of what I enjoy doing. I’m a ceramist. I deal with little things, and I deal with big things, and I like craft and I want to put craft in building. I want the design to be crafted, but then I want the product to be crafted. The hand is important, so that’s been fun for me. I don’t know that it’s necessary to make the project successful, but…
Eve: [00:12:02] Right.
Mark: [00:12:02] Am I answering these questions? I don’t know.
Eve: [00:12:04] Oh yes, yes. I can hear Suzanne cooking in the background. And we’re not we’re not going to edit that out. Okay.
Mark: [00:12:14] No.
Eve: [00:12:15] So you’re nudging the building, all 300,000ft² of it, from almost vacant to a fully occupied creative hub. So how far along are you? Tell us about the activities and facilities already there.
Mark: [00:12:30] It’s amazing. I just had someone come in yesterday. And I’m so excited about this. He came in, he is a luthier, and I’ve talked to people about a luthier. No one knows what a luthier is.
Eve: [00:12:45] What is a luthier?
Mark: [00:12:47] Here we go. A luthier is someone who makes and repairs stringed instruments.
Eve: [00:12:54] That’s what I remembered, yes. So, we call them a violin maker. But there’s many more. Oh, yeah. No string instruments. String instruments. You got lutes and basses and all sorts of things. Yeah, OK.
[00:13:08] Yes. So anyway, he is in, he’s involved, he’s a co-president of an international luthier’s organization that meets once a year at Oberlin, in Ohio. And I guess there’s a big music program out there. And they’ve been very supportive of this organization, but they shut down for the pandemic because nobody could travel. And then Oberlin informed them that they can’t use the facilities that they’ve used for three decades now because it’s under construction. So, he’s scratching his head. Well, maybe we should do it in Williamsport. And he gave me a call and I showed him around. We have the wood shop so they can cut pieces of wood and work on their luthing? I don’t know, whatever they do. And we have the Clerestory event space, which he thinks is magnificent.
Eve: [00:14:00] It is gorgeous.
Mark: [00:14:01] They have 60 people that are going to come from around the world, and everybody from somebody who’s just entering the field for a couple of years in, to guys have been doing it for decades and get pushed around in a wheelchair, the whole spectrum from all over the world. 60 folks are going to come into town, I hope. And this fellow and the head of the wood shop got talking, and they immediately got down to what kind of hand plane they like and why, and what is the angle of the blade on that plane. And, you know, that’s the number three, not the number two from that manufacturer. And I’m like, oh my God, this is too good. I love that. And that’s you know, that’s what we’re, that’s what I’m trying to build here is this collaborative opportunity for folks. You know there’s no requirements. You can go be a hermit in your studio. So that’s neat. That’s what’s going on there. But we, I mean that’s one end of the spectrum, this really rarefied craft. And the other end of the spectrum is we have, tonight, we have a pro wrestling match in that room. I mean, you can’t make this up.
Eve: [00:15:15] You also have a volunteer bike recycling shop.
Mark: [00:15:21] Yes, we do.
Eve: [00:15:23] I don’t remember what else was there.
Mark: [00:15:25] Oh my. Okay. Well, we have a community wood shop, and we have a clay studio, which is open to the public. You take classes and become a member there. We have a dark room, old school dark room, mostly working on experimental systems, old ways to develop film and paper. And we have the coffee roaster and a, pasta maker, and…
Eve: [00:15:53] And the coffee roaster makes great pastries.
Mark: [00:15:56] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very. Yes, yes. And then lots and lots of studio spaces with small businesses, marketing folks and artists and lots of photographers because the windows are massive and have a really interesting diffusing glass from the early days which creates great light in the spaces. So, we got lots of photographers.
Eve: [00:16:21] And residents. Right?
Mark: [00:16:22] Yes, we do. We have residents, maybe a dozen. We want to put in another 60 residents, low end, lower cost, basic, room with the toilet, if you will, for the cheap artist lofts.
Eve: [00:16:38] It’s a lot more than a room with a toilet. They’re really spectacular. Tall ceilings.
Mark: [00:16:43] Some of them can be. Yes, some of them can be. But I want to make some really inexpensive ones and attract the artists. And maybe they move up, maybe they don’t. Or maybe the folks that live in the nice spaces on the top floor buy the artwork from downstairs, I don’t know.
Eve: [00:16:58] So Mark, most developers look for anchor tenants for very large projects like this because then that brings additional tenants along. What’s your approach to that?
Mark: [00:17:09] I have not found that to be useful at all, which has created a problem with the banks. I have found we have a couple of bigger, we have one bigger tenant. And he uses rent for his cash flow management, which is a problem. We have 160 spaces rented, all small, otherwise all small tenants. And I find security in having a lot of tenants, instead of giving power to a few tenants. So, you fight the financial system by not having an anchor tenant that basically can cover a good percentage of the rent, but in my case, with 300,000ft², what’s an anchor tenant? 100,000ft². You know?
Eve: [00:18:04] And anchor tenants tend to be not local too, right? So…
Mark: [00:18:07] Right.
Eve: [00:18:08] How many how many of your tenants would you say are local? You know,
Mark: [00:18:11] All of them.
Eve: [00:18:12] All of them.
Mark: [00:18:13] All of them.
Eve: [00:18:13] The retail tenants? Yeah.
Mark: [00:18:15] Yeah, all of them.
Eve: [00:18:17] So they’re very committed to the community and the town.
Mark: [00:18:21] And the factory, which is nice. Yeah, they’re committed to the project.
Eve: [00:18:25] What’s an attractive condominium price then? There.
Mark: [00:18:30] There’s no history out here. So, it remains to be seen. I’m hoping to produce finished lofts in the top floor for $200 a square foot.
Eve: [00:18:42] I mean that’s less than half what they are now in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Can’t even guess what they are in New York or Philly.
Mark: [00:18:49] Oh, yeah, no it’s crazy. It’s ten times. I mean, in Manhattan, it’s pushing $2,000 a foot. And Philly I looked recently and Philly, I seem to find a lot of them around $300 a foot. So, I think we can, the question is, can we make it work? But I think we can because the acquisition costs of the property was so low.
Eve: [00:19:13] So you’ve got about 60% of the space full?
Mark: [00:19:16] Yeah.
Eve: [00:19:16] And you’re now on a path to build out the final 40%.
Mark: [00:19:22] In in phases, still.
Eve: [00:19:24] In phases. Okay. Cause that’s a lot of square footage, right?
Mark: [00:19:29] Yeah, it still is. That’s right.
Eve: [00:19:32] And so, like, about the creative facilities, what else is planned? You’ve got a luthier coming. I mean, in your vision what would be ideal?
Mark: [00:19:41] Well, we’ve got the clay studio, wood shop and bicycle recycle, and photography are all part of a non-profit umbrella organization called Factory Works. And I’d very much like to see Factory Works expand their offerings to include metalworking and printmaking and glasswork. I mean, we can keep going. Whatever, you know, have a maker space, get some digital fabrication going. So, to that end, I’m dedicating about 15,000ft² of space on the ground floor to consolidate and allow them to expand at the same time. So, I think that’s going to be key. What we really need to do is get the tenants to start to take control of their own futures here and allow me to step aside. That’s a challenge. I don’t know, I’m hoping the condo process will do that.
Eve: [00:20:41] Yeah, because you then can create a condominium association which has governance that isn’t just you making decisions, right?
Mark: [00:20:49] Exactly, exactly.
Eve: [00:20:51] And it’s yeah, it is challenging. So, what’s a typical day at the factory like for you since you live there?
Mark: [00:21:01] Yeah. Oh, you know, I’ll get a call when someone’s key breaks off in the lock and there’s a pipe that breaks somewhere because it froze in the winter because we can’t heat the whole place yet. What is my typical day? Yeah, I got a lot of balls in the air, but I try to keep focused. I’m trying, we went away, Suzy and I went away in a vacation for two weeks. I didn’t talk to anyone for two weeks. The place ran itself.
Eve: [00:21:29] That must be comforting.
Mark: [00:21:31] Well, it almost is. And I say almost because there isn’t really a number two person who would call me. if there’s an issue. There’s a bunch of number three and number four and number five people, but there’s no number two person. And so, I need, I kind of need that. And I need enough cash flow to be able to just pay someone to be number two. And then I’d be directing him instead of trying to direct everybody. So right now, we’ve got ten employees and I have to sort of stay on top of all ten of them. They’re all doing things that are different. Well, three of them are doing construction, so there’s a hierarchy there. We got one guy who’s in charge of construction and maintenance. But otherwise, everybody’s kind has an individual discipline, which is unnerving because you have one bookkeeper and then she’s out sick, you know. Yeah. What do you do?
[00:22:26] Yeah. There’s this is dilemma when you’re in the 10 to 20 people phase where you can’t really quite afford someone to supervise everyone for you. It’s tough.
Mark: [00:22:34] Yeah, yeah, that’s where we’re at. Again, the condo will have a board that takes care of this, which, but we’re a ways from that.
Eve: [00:22:45] Yes. What aspects of the project have been the most delightful and rewarding for you.
Mark: [00:22:51] Yeah, that’s a good question. It all, it’s, you know, what part of the spaghetti sauce is your favorite?
Eve: [00:22:57] Okay, I’ll move on. What’s been the most challenging then?
Mark: [00:23:03] Yeah. Fair. Money.
Eve: [00:23:07] Money.
Mark: [00:23:07] Money has been money has been the most challenging. And, I mean, coming from New York, money’s around. You have a viable project. You put something together, you can find money. At least that’s my understanding. But out here, we’re breaking all the rules, and it seems to stack up against any kind of conventional financing. I think the biggest problem with this small town that continues to lose population is that real estate values at best are stagnant.
Eve: [00:23:40] How does a bank assess the value, right? There’s just no like kind property at all.
Mark: [00:23:46] That’s another problem. But yes, there’s, so, you know, we have cash flow now. But why would a bank want to invest for 30 years in a dying town? Or 25 years, or 20 years. It’s a big burden. So, they’re very conservative about when they invest. So, they’re looking at 50 or 60% loan to value ratios instead of 80, 90%. And they put a very, the appraisers put a very conservative capitalization rate depending on whether you’re on the receiving or sending end there. But they use a cap rate of ten. So, you you’ve got these hurdles. You can’t get the cash flow at a cap rate ten to support significant debt.
Eve: [00:24:35] But you’ve done it, right?
[00:24:38] Well, yeah, I mean we had help when we bought it. We had help when we bought it. There was a very aggressive banker before the regulations changed before the financial crisis. We bought it just before the financial crisis in 07/08. And the regulations have hamstrung the bankers in many ways. But we bought it before that, so we got a loan before that. And they had a, the town had an economic development person on staff, and the banker worked with them and therefore the mayor at the time and we got a loan. It was a small amount ultimately, but it was enough for us to get involved. We got a $600,000 low interest loan from the state through the city. So that got us going, but we’ve had nothing since then.
Eve: [00:25:32] Oh, wow! You have gotten a grant from the from the state.
Mark: [00:25:37] The state? Yes. I know it’s interesting. The biggest challenge has been to convince the local administration folks, the local city government that we’re good guys, and it seems a natural to me, but it’s been very, very difficult. I think we’re coming around now because there’s enough of a chorus out there with all of our tenants and all the events that we have here. Enough of a chorus that’s very supportive that they, I think they’re beginning to come around.
Eve: [00:26:15] So do you think your project has influenced the perception of Williamsport? It’s a lot of square feet in a small town.
Mark: [00:26:25] It’s beginning to. There’s a number of tenants that have moved back to or stayed in Williamsport because of the pajama factory. And of course, they talk about that to others. So, yeah, I mean, that’s what’s most exciting, I think. That’s the part that I find most exciting and the part that’s most surprising when I bought the building. You know, it’s a bunch of bricks and windows. I’ll fix it up and we’ll get it occupied. But now we’re changing a town, and that’s very exciting.
Eve: [00:26:56] It’s economic development.
Mark: [00:26:57] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Eve: [00:27:00] So you’ve also listed a raise, which was launched yesterday, on Smallchange.co to raise funds for this next building phase that you’re going through. Is this partly the reason why? It’s too hard to find, you know, I don’t even know what normal money is, I’m not sure I should say that, but it’s very difficult. I mean, I’ve worked with other developers who have similar problems. Anytime a project is out of the city and unusual, it is almost impossible to get institutional financing. So, you’re not alone. Although that doesn’t really make it better.
Mark: [00:27:39] What I’ve found is you can get institutional financing, maybe, for your facility, for your project as it sits. So, I got financing based on our new cash flow and new appraisal and they made sure that there was enough cash flow to pay for the financing. There was nothing for development. So that any development has to be, money, has to be obtained outside. And that’s where Small Change is going to help us. In the past, I’ve approached some friends and family and that’s gotten us going. But I love the way that Small Change works, and I think it’s going to do a lot to publicize what we’re doing here in town. And I’m looking forward to getting, I don’t know I’ll get so much money out of the town folks, but I think we’ll get a lot of positive PR and I’m going to push that. Yeah.
Eve: [00:28:46] Good. So, and what will this next round of funding build, you know, along with the, I know you have funds from the state as well, a grant. So, what are you planning?
Mark: [00:28:56] Yeah. So, uh, I hope to have about three mil to work with in total. And the state funding is going towards long deferred, too long deferred maintenance issues like roofing, parking lots, HVAC systems, the stuff that doesn’t pay rent. Every time, I mean, because we can only get money based on rent roll, every penny that I got from a bank or development went into developing rent roll. How? With the roof right now, I need rent roll. But now we’ve got some free money coming. Not free, it’s grant money. A lot of brain cells get expended when you work with these grants. But anyway, I’m going to use the grant money to, you know, secure the building at this point. That’s very exciting. But then there’s some more money left over, I hope and that’s going to go towards, well, my favorite project, and it’s probably for personal reasons, is our beer garden on the roof. I want to use…
[00:30:00] Now, is it the beer or the garden, Mark?
Mark: [00:30:03] It’s the beer, of course. Well, you know, it’s going to be what I can do in the afternoon when I can’t drink coffee. Time to go upstairs. The roof is amazing. It’s so beautiful up there. You’re in a valley, in a green valley and you’re above all the trees and all the other buildings you can see all the way downtown. The sunsets off to the west, right off the roof. And we’re putting a kind of a guest bar up there, and we’re going to use the beer garden to, I hope, attract, a craft brewer. And then the craft brewer’s going to move in downstairs. I’ve got 6000ft² of space dedicated to a brewery. And then I’m hoping that the activity with our new parking lot out front and the craft brewery downstairs. I hope that activity generates some interest for the restaurant. So, then we really start to have an ecosystem here that’s pretty complete. And I just need to do that before I’m in my walker, because I have to get this happening.
Eve: [00:31:12] I don’t think that’s ever going to happen, or not soon. So, what advice do you have for anyone contemplating a similar project?
[00:31:19] Call me. You have to be prepared for a lot of time. I did this in New York. We bought into a loft in downtown Manhattan in 1984 and paid almost nothing for it. It was a dump. It was truly a dump right over a disco. But I knew that there was a lot of space, and I was an architect. I was like, okay, I’ll work with the space, and we’ll see how it goes. And it went fantastic for us over time, it’s now worth a bloody fortune. And it allowed me to buy this building. So, I’m like, okay, let’s do it again. But it takes time. I mean, it was 30 years in New York to build the value.
Eve: [00:32:03] Yes, like, real estate is a long hold.
Mark: [00:32:07] It should be, and I think the way the development world works and money works, it demands a short-term return. And that is counter to building a quality, community-based structure, or institution. So, you got to go into it with your eyes wide open that it’s going to take a long time. Even longer than you think. As I said, this is a five-year project for me, and I’m on 16.
Eve: [00:32:39] So there’s no sequel planned for you, right? There’s not a pajama factory number two?
Mark: [00:32:45] No, there really isn’t. No, people have asked. No, this is plenty. And it’s, the other thing about it is it’s an endless project, which is fine. You know, I want to get it so it can support itself, but that doesn’t mean I can’t continue to contribute.
Eve: [00:32:59] So final question I want to ask is how does this project feed your soul?
Mark: [00:33:05] Oh, so many ways. As I said, I love the crafts. I was an architect, I decided to go to the dark side and become a developer. And then after many years, I finally decided I’m not really a developer, I’m a design builder. And I love that. I love getting my hands dirty, being right there with people, doing work, trying to figure out problems. I mean, that’s what I love to do. I also love people. I love to meet them. I love to introduce them. I love to find out what makes them tick. And I think the combination of the two has been essential for the success we’ve had to date.
Eve: [00:33:44] Well, Mark, it’s a pretty rare developer that puts so much soul into their project. As you know, our cities are filled with soulless buildings.
Mark: [00:33:55] All the more now.
Eve: [00:33:57] Yes. So, I really appreciate what you’re doing and thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. I hope the raise goes gangbusters.
Mark: [00:34:04] Yeah, Good. Yes, I do too. And I’ll be pushing it and rewarding everyone who helps.
Eve: [00:34:20] I hope you enjoyed today’s guest and our deep dive. You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at RethinkRealEstateforGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. Please support this podcast and all the great work my guests do by sharing it with others, posting about it on social media, or leaving a rating and a review. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on LinkedIn. Even better, if you’re ready to dabble in some impact investing, head on over to smallchange.co where I spend most of my time. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music. And a big thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.
Image courtesy of Mark Winkelman
