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Design

I finally found my tribe.

July 27, 2022

Jim is an infill developer and sustainable development advisor based in Sonoma County, California. Known for his aspirational but practical approach, he works with a range of tools and best practices to communicate the value of inspired design and sustainability within the realities of local market norms. With over forty years experience as an urban designer, land planner, sustainability strategist and now infill developer, he brings a broad range of perspectives and skills to the discussion about how communities grow. Trained as a landscape architect, he received a Master’s in Real Estate Development from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) as way to more effectively integrate economics, development and design thinking.

An active member of the Urban Land Institute (ULI), Jim was at the forefront of defining the tenets of sustainable community design, serving as co-instructor for ULI’s pioneering program in Sustainable Community Design. He continues his leadership as founder and lead instructor for ULI’s program focused on small scale incremental development. He has organized and led fifteen national tours where participants explore the impact and benefits of non-institutional approaches to real estate development, and how it creates stronger local economies and more authentic places. Drawing on his own experience and the work of others seen during these tours, he authored Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders and Great Communities. Published in April by ULI, the book has quickly gained a national following from all professions engaged in shaping the built environment.

To Jim, small does not mean insignificant. His work emphasizes the idea that Small is oftentimes Big, and his ULI forums have brought together developers with this same value system, giving them a place in real estate and encouraging them to create change.

Read the podcast transcript here

Eve Picker: [00:00:09] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo, in order to build better for everyone. If you haven’t already, check out all of my podcasts at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co, or you can find them at your favorite podcast station. You’ll find lots worth listening to, I’m sure.

Eve: [00:01:00] Early in his career, Jim Heid worked on humongous real estate projects all over the world as a management consultant. Over time, the diversity of places he lived and worked in shaped his appreciation of small, community-centric places with soul. He moved his head and heart from a loft in downtown San Francisco to the tiny 12,000-person town of Healdsburg in California, where he is building his thesis that small is big. There are some big things that Jim is working on. They include his small-scale developer forums, which are growing bigger. A recently published book called “Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders and Great Communities” and real estate projects that are small and meaningful. Jim Heid has a big story to tell, so listen in.

Eve: [00:02:04] If you’d like to join me in my quest to rethink real estate, there are two simple things you can do share this podcast and go to rethinkrealestateforgood.co, where you can subscribe to be the first to hear about my podcasts, blog posts and other goodies.

Eve: [00:02:29] So welcome to the show, Jim. I’m really excited to talk to you.

Jim Heid: [00:02:33] Yeah, I’m happy to be here. It’s long overdue, right?

Eve: [00:02:36] It is. I met you a while back. I don’t even know how long back, through the ULI Small Scale Developer forum. So, my first question to you is, like how did the theme Small Scale, which will emerge as we talk, come to take center stage in your professional life? And actually, what does that even mean in your professional life?

Jim: [00:03:01] Those are two loaded questions. So, I’m going to start with the first of all, how did I get there? Why am I so passionate about it? And then I can talk a little bit about at least how I’m defining it. There’s those moments in your life that you remember pretty clearly, and I do remember the kind of, the aha moment for me with Small Scale, which was coming out of a ULI meeting. It was a spring meeting in 2011. I was talking to a colleague of mine. I don’t know if you know Howard Kozloff a great guy.

Eve: [00:03:28] I do know that name. Yeah.

Jim: [00:03:30] Yeah. Southern California, developer. And we were talking about we’ve spent a good part of our careers attending, participating, teaching for ULI, really loved the organization and its mission, but felt that a lot of the content was increasingly focused on really big stuff and it kind of was like, Hey, if I’m not $1,000,000,000 rete or a multimillion dollar six block project, like where do I go anymore? Where do I get content? Where to get inspiration, where to get tips? So, we came up with this idea that there needed to be some place where people, like ourselves, that wanted to. We weren’t doing small deals to get to big deals, we wanted to do small deals because we felt they were important. And I can talk a little bit about why, but I felt they are really important and personally very fulfilling. So, it became a passion, took the form through support of ULI into the small-scale forums. We’ll talk about how the forums fed the book and all that kind of stuff. But the definition of small scale.

Eve: [00:04:36] Well, you know, let me add something, because right when you were figuring out a solution, I decided to quit ULI for exactly the same reason I thought, I don’t belong here. These are not the sorts of projects that really interest me as a developer, and I don’t see how I fit. So, I think you were looking to address exactly what I was feeling.

Jim: [00:04:59] Yeah. And I think the hope was to create a safe place within the organization that could embrace this idea and bring people together. And now, with this incredible focus on DEI, the comment is that’s where the emerging developers, the people of color, the people who want to reinvest in their neighborhoods and make a difference in the built environment where they’re from or where they live or where their neighborhoods and their families are. They’re starting at the small scale and so.

Eve: [00:05:30] So small is now big, right?

Jim: [00:05:31] Yeah, small is well, that’s my other venture now called the Initiative to Make Small Big, so yes.

Eve: [00:05:38] Okay.

Jim: [00:05:39] But so, the other question you had was how am I defining small or how do we define small? And, you know, it’s a great question that’s hard to answer because this is an industry that’s extremely quantitative. It’s all about square feet. It’s all about returns. It’s all about dollar value of a project. And after ten years and working on the book and trying to come up with that singular definition of small really came to the idea that it defies a a quantitative definition and it’s much more qualitative. And so, small is the way that we’re defining it. And in the book, there’s the ten hallmarks of small. It’s typically coming from sponsors that have a very clear core set of values. It’s people who are investing in their neighborhoods and care about their neighborhoods.

Jim: [00:06:29] It’s really the attitude and perspective of the developer. It’s developers that have skin in the game and are typically long term holds. It’s not about fix and flip and move on opportunistically. And the biggest thing that I say about small is it’s people that are involved in this and are working in the small genre. See real estate as the means to the end as opposed to the end itself. And what I mean by that is they’re focused on creating human connections, community uplift, creating great places, bringing economic value to their communities, but also building wealth. This is not philanthropy. This is using disciplined capital and execution to create real estate. But they’re doing it in pursuit of something bigger, which is creating great places, as opposed to simply just building real estate as an asset class.

Eve: [00:07:20] So basically, I always say, you know, I could never build a building as a commodity, right? You know, just as a way to make money. It’s way more than that because people experience buildings in the city and they live, the buildings make the places they live in. So much more.

Jim: [00:07:37] Yeah. So, my shorthand that’s evolved after a lot of these kind of presentations is it’s about building community, not commodity, to your extent, and it’s about doing transformations, not transactions. And so, yeah.

Eve: [00:07:49] So what are the ten hallmarks then in your book?

Jim: [00:07:53] Well. So, it’s a clear sense of purpose, commitment to positive evolution of neighborhoods, understanding and building on the assets of fine-grained street character and neighborhoods. So, instead of building amenities, it actually sees the neighborhoods and what is in the neighborhoods as the amenity and how they add to it. It’s entrepreneur individuals and organizations seeking a contextual and best use for the neighborhoods so very much about what I call context and connections. And those connections are both physical as well as social. Long term agility and flexibility. So, kind of future proofing, thinking about assets, these are not one offs that can never be adaptively reuse, and obviously a lot of the stuff that we see in small is adaptive reuse because there’s a story there, there’s a soul and character and it has an impact on the neighborhood, transforms buildings, and it’s kind of a commitment to transform building sites into economic assets.

Jim: [00:08:52] Again, this idea that this is not philanthropy, this is not unreplicable, the idea is this is disciplined use of capital and good development skills to create a model and an approach both at the enterprise level and the project level that many people can scale up and do. And then, the contextually responsive community responsive and market differentiated. So, what I often say is a lot of these projects are very experientially based and they’re focusing on creating the experience which feeds the sales as opposed to just focusing on what’s my lease rate. It’s like, what am I going to create in? What we see in most of these is if you get the experience right, you create something unique, the rates and the revenues follow pretty handsomely.

Eve: [00:09:36] Interesting. But all of this came after many years of these forums, right? Which you developed, and I’ve been to a couple and really, really love them because I do feel like I fit in there. So, how do they work and how many have you had and where’s the next one?

Jim: [00:09:54] Glad you asked because this is kind of like the best thing I get to do in my world. And so, the epilogue to the aha moment that I had with Howard about, hey, how do we create a place for this conversation? And what I like to say, we’re not trying to disparage big, but we’re trying to elevate small so that civic leaders, people that are interested in the built environment, capital sources, can start to consider it as another alternative approach to real estate as opposed to binary, it’s either big or small. But anyway, so when we were talking about this, and at the time I had been teaching a number of programs for ULI, first the Sustainable Community Development, then the advanced residential, then mixed use projects. They asked for some new content, and I said, Well, maybe there’s a place where we could create a forum for people that are interested in this, small scale developers. And we thought it would be a collection of people that were interested in getting into real estate that maybe had just graduated or leaving some other profession, design, brokerage or whatever else, and wanted to kind of learn the basics of real estate, but again, apply it in a small kind of workmanlike way.

Jim: [00:11:04] So, we did the first one in San Francisco in 2012, so a decade ago, and we’re blown away that what we got was not people coming into the profession, but a lot of people like you and I, people who passionately and deeply believed in this, who had a lot of experience and were desperately seeking what has become, the short end is I finally found my tribe. It’s a group of people who share the same values are dealing with the same challenges. There is one woman said, I’m an investment committee of one. I’ve got to make these decisions myself, which is, leads to incredible agility but also is very nerve racking. So, we did the first one in San Francisco that was good, went on, did one in D.C., went to Seattle, Miami, and every time it grew and we were getting people not one time but every time.

Eve: [00:11:56] A real tribe, right?

Jim: [00:11:58] Yeah. Yeah, real tribe. So fast forward, we just did our 17th one, just completed our first decade. It was in San Antonio. We had 80 people. It’s a two-and-a-half-day program where we do panels and case studies and tours, and a lot of it is networking where people are now sharing pro formas. I’m constantly calling up some of my colleagues and say, hey, I’ve got this contract. I need this kind of a clause. Have you ever done that? So, it’s become this…

Eve: [00:12:30] It’s become a big board, right? A big board for your project.

Jim: [00:12:34] Yeah, it’s an open-sourced approach to small scale development as well as I mean, the feedback that I got from the last one is like, you know, I just always leave so inspired. I’m ready to move forward with my projects. It’s so nice to find people who feel the way I do. I thought I was like living out here on my own. And so, it’s become a great thing. And we go to a different city every time. So, as I said, we just did our 17th one or 18th one will be in Nashville in November.

Eve: [00:13:01] I think I’m going to come to that, hold a spot for me.

Jim: [00:13:04] We have people now that have been to 15 or more. So, it’s become, like I said, a real thing. It’s kind of for people in the small-scale space, it’s their annual or twice a year conference where they really love to get together.

Eve: [00:13:20] That’s awesome.

Jim: [00:13:21] Just as a quick sidebar, one of the super fun things that we do and we tried this about, I don’t know, I guess it’s been about eight years ago, but we called it the small petracca slam or Cochon char or how we say it.

Eve: [00:13:33] Pachuco, I think it’s called.

Jim: [00:13:35] Yeah, we were trying to figure out a way that people could introduce themselves without the mind-numbing things that typically happen when you go to conferences. Hi, I’m Jim Heid from Healdsburg, California, I’m an infield developer. So, about eight years ago I asked people to send me three slides and they get 15 seconds for each slide to talk about a project they’re doing a value or hold or a trend they’re watching. And I put it all together into one slide deck. We do about an hour-long cocktail hour, and then after the hour, after everybody’s been appropriately lubricated, we just turn it on and people go and pass the mic. And it’s this like firehose of amazing projects and people’s values and what they’re doing. And then it creates this bond where people like, oh, I saw this thing you were doing in Minneapolis, I’ve got something similar. How you doing this? So, it really opens up the door for conversations, but it’s also super fun and amazing to see the diversity of stuff that is going on in this space around the country. That’s the other thing I should say is of this 70-80 people that typically come, we’re probably getting somewhere around 30 different states represented.

Eve: [00:14:44] That’s amazing.

Jim: [00:14:45] So this is not a local audience. It’s a national audience.

Eve: [00:14:46] You know, it sounds a little bit like Small Change. 30 states represented, an amazing variety of stuff. Yeah, really interesting. So, yeah, hold a space for me in Nashville.

Jim: [00:14:59] Okay. I will do.

Eve: [00:15:00] Okay. And when is that?

Jim: [00:15:03] We’re still trying to pin down the dates. It’s a Sunday, Monday or Tuesday, so it’s either six, seven and eight or 13, 14 and 15.

Eve: [00:15:11] Of which month?

Jim: [00:15:12] November.

Eve: [00:15:14] Okay, so the forums grew into the book, which you described, and who should read the book and why?

Jim: [00:15:25] So, in the genesis of the book was, so let’s see, it was it was Denver, so it was our 2016. So, it would have been probably our ninth one that we had done. And I remember flying back and I’m like, every time we go to one of these, I am so inspired by what people are doing. I’m so frustrated at the stories they’re telling about the barriers that are thrown at them and how hard we are making this to do when in fact so many people want it. Because while I was doing that, I had my consulting business, Urban Green, and I was doing a lot of community outreach and facilitation work for projects. And I would go into towns and people would say, you know, we want stuff that fits better. We don’t like these big formula projects that come in from out of state. We want small scale. We want this, hey, I read this thing and strong towns or incremental development. That’s what we want.

Jim: [00:16:14] And so, and then I would go to the forums, and I’d listen to these people who have done these beautifully crafted projects and listen to the pain and suffering and years of struggles from a capital standpoint, a regulatory standpoint. And it was like, this is a really important story, and somebody needs to tell the story both about the projects and how valuable they are to the community, but also the barriers that most places have put up to make this harder rather than easier than big development. And so, started whittling away at this idea of the book. And it originally was going to be kind of this journalistic opinion about small scale development and then quickly grew into this life’s work that is basically three parts. It’s the what and why of small. So, the definition that we talked about and then why it’s important not only urbanistically, but as a critical part of a resilient local economy and the value of the inextricable link between locally owned businesses and small real estate, and how important that is in economic cycles to have people that are really invested in their community as opposed to just a bunch of out of town lessees that will mail back the keys the first time they run into trouble.

Jim: [00:17:28] And then there’s a whole how-to toolkit, which is about a third of the book or two thirds of the book that was really meant to explain not real estate 101, but what is different about working in this small space than what they would teach you in grad school? And so, I say this is what they don’t teach you at real estate school section. And then the last one is classic Urban Land Institute case studies. And you’re profiled in this because we thought it was more than just talking about projects. It was really important to talk about the people, the agencies, the non-profits that were at the vanguard of this and how they were accomplishing it. Because we wanted people to pick up the book and say, oh, we could do that. This person did this, and I share those values as opposed to, oh, that’s a cool project. What’s the numbers look like on that? So, who should read it falls into two camps and it was written very specifically to two audiences. The first one is the real estate entrepreneur. The people who want to pursue this as a career path or are already in it. And we’ve had a lot of universities now that are using it as a textbook for their design schools.

Jim: [00:18:39] We have some non-profit housing providers that are actually using it as part of their emerging developers curriculum program. And you ULI, a number of the district councils are using it as part of their real estate diversity initiative. But then the other audience was meant to be civic leaders, planning staff and even citizens who are going around all the time saying This is what we want but don’t realize how hard they’ve made it.

Jim: [00:19:04] So, it’s part inspiration and call to action of what’s possible, then it also breaks down in a pretty common sense way of when you make it more difficult to get approvals, you increase the risk, which means the capital costs more, if you can even get the capital and therefore a lot of the community benefits that you think the developers should pay for can no longer pay that because he’s had to pay for it as entitlements or the project doesn’t work. So, there’s a pretty broad audience, and my favorite thing is when people are buying this and giving it to their council members or they’re planning commissions or there are a lot of people who buy like ten or 20 and have me sign them and give them to their whole town council staff. When I get city managers that call me up and say, you know, come talk to me about this, I’ve got this site and we’re trying to figure out what to do and maybe we should try a small approach. So, you know, I think we’ve reached the broad, and then obviously there’s a lot of real estate entrepreneurs. People come in and they’re like, oh, I love this. I’ve been waiting so long for this. It’s just, you know, the other quick thing that I’ll say about the book is this, I was two years late delivering it and actually finished it during COVID. But I say it’s a much better book because during those two years I did two projects of my own and that personal journey and what I learned and the nuances beyond the academia, what the real details and just the personal introspection of what you’ve got to go through to really succeed, found its way into the book, I think as more than just a how to it’s how to do this and how to survive the rollercoaster as a small developer when you’ve got everything hanging out on the line and not sure.

Eve: [00:20:47] Right, it is a roller coaster. Sounds like the book took longer than a real estate project.

Jim: [00:20:51] No, the book was four years. The projects were, well, one was three and one was five. So yeah.

Eve: [00:20:57] So right in the middle.

Jim: [00:20:59] Right in the middle. And they all finished about the same time. So, last year was pretty big.

Eve: [00:21:06] So let’s talk about your projects. So, I’m fascinated by first of the fact that you live and work in Healdsburg, California, which is a small town, and the two projects I know about really exemplify sort of entire community life. One is directed at small businesses and the other is directed at small residences. And the first is craft work, which is a co-working space, which I think you opened right when the pandemic began.

Jim: [00:21:35] 63 days before the shelter in place. But who’s counting?

Eve: [00:21:40] And the second is one that it looks like it was, I don’t know when it was completed, but River House, which is 12 residences also in that town. So, tell me about craftwork first, why did you decide to develop a co-working space? That’s another business again, you know.

Jim: [00:21:57] Yeah, well, back up first, I’ll just gives some quick context for Healdsburg. So, Healdsburg is a town of about 12,000 people an hour north, door to door north of San Francisco, right at the center of kind of the wine and food culture in Sonoma County and has an incredible kind of historic walkable urbanism DNA and it was discovered, really discovered and kind of current trajectory about 2000 we bought a place here in 2003, it was a weekend place. We would come up from the city we were living like right downtown San Francisco in the warehouse district and a loft. So, it was our perfect little town and country lifestyle. And then in 2013 sold our place in the city and moved up here full time. It’s one of those things where every Sunday was a.

Eve: [00:22:43] That’s a Really big move. That’s a big move.

Jim: [00:22:45] It’s a big move. And it was one of those things where every Sunday where you’re packing up the car to go back to the city and your job and then you’re say, oh, it’d be so nice to live here. Really would hate to go. And so, finally we reached the point and said, well, you know, there’s nothing keeping us in the city. We were both independent, you know, mobile. So, it’s like, okay, let’s move up here and do that. So, when I moved here, you know, it’s a small enough town and parochial in some ways that until you really live here, you don’t have as much credibility as when you do. And so, I moved here and then I had all this experience through my consulting and my work with Urban Land Institute and a lot of the projects I’ve worked with around the globe. So suddenly I had this opportunity to bring and test what I’d learned other places to a small town with great DNA that was experiencing, I wouldn’t call it rapid growth, and I’ll tell you about that in a minute, but it was experiencing certainly increased visibility and desirability. Smithsonian ranked it the number two town in the country to visit one year. It’s got one of the one of the top five town squares. So, it gets a lot of press and visibility.

Jim: [00:23:51] So, I had come back from our Detroit forum and each of our forums are themed around something and that particular one was themed around co-working, urban manufacturing and makerspace. And so, we toured a number of co-working spaces in Detroit, and they were really phenomenal. First of all, I just love the aesthetic, I love the concept, I love the kind of community and the flexibility of that. This is so, you know, I can do this. This is what I want to do. So, I came back to Healdsburg, and I live one block from my co-working space and which at the time was an empty, vacant 5000 square foot bank in a sixties strip center between my house and the coffee shop that I went to every morning. And I would walk by it, and I would fantasize about, wouldn’t it be cool to do that? You know, I could do that. And this is a town that even though it’s only 12,000 people, it’s fairly well-to-do. You’ve got a lot of people who I call tech emigres that have left the city and are now living their life up here, but they’re working remotely. Got a lot of people to come through, stay a weekend and want to connect into the town. They want an authentic experience. They just don’t want to do the stuff that’s on the Three Perfect Days in Healdsburg kind of thing. So, I naively said, well, yeah, I can do this. And I talked to a couple of friends and they’re like, yeah, I know this makes total sense. So, this was this was about 2017, we started the discussion. So, WeWork was still in its heyday and rapidly growing. I don’t think even industrious, I don’t think industrious was around. But anyways.

Eve: [00:25:30] No, industrious is later, I think.

Jim: [00:25:32] Yeah, yeah. But the whole co-working phenomena and leading edge and all that was going on. And again, I loved it. I wanted to get my hands dirty, not just write about something, not just go to forums. I want to get my hands dirty. So, it seemed like a perfect opportunity. So, really funny story. So, I go to the landlord. So, this is built in 60 by a gentleman who has now passed away. So, I am dealing with his son and the son’s daughter. The son is 90 and the daughter is 67. And I walk in with my beautiful flipbook, you know, cribbing pictures from WeWork and all the really cool, sexy co-working spaces. And I say, I’d like to lease the space and I’m going to build this coworking space. And they look at me for a minute and they say, well, my dad said, you never should put office in your retail centers. And I’m like, well, don’t think of it as office. Think of it like a gym. Think of all the people moving through here. And, you know, it’s 5000 square feet. It’s been vacant for a while. And with Amazon and everything else is not going to be a lot of takers for the space. So, within a span of about an hour, a gentleman who is 90 years old kind of put the piece in. He’s just like, so if I was young and I came to town and I wanted to start a business, I could just get a desk and I wouldn’t have to, like, sign a lease and I wouldn’t have to, like, get internet and pay for cleaning. And I’m like, yeah, he’s like, wow, that’s a really cool idea. We should do that.

Jim: [00:26:57] So, we struck a deal and then I embarked on the design and planning, and I spent a lot of time talking to people I know I spoke to you about, like, how do you build a performer? What are the metrics? What’s the industry trends? There was a woman in Petaluma who had done one, and she was enormously helpful in terms of thinking through how people in these markets use co-working versus how they do in an urban center. And again, being a fairly upscale community, I knew this couldn’t be shag carpet and beanbag chairs for people with flip flops and hoodies. Our demographic is probably mid-forties professional. So, I immediately created this kind of verbal image of Hotel Healdsburg, which was our upscale hotel, beautifully done by David Baker, Banshee Tasting Room, which was eclectic, cool little hip tasting room meets flying goat coffee, which was the beloved coffee shop where everybody went and worked. And when I would explain that to people, they immediately got it. And so then embarked on the, the design, the construction turned out beautifully. People love it, had a lot of really interesting.

Eve: [00:28:10] And you got through COVID, how did you do that? What did that?

Jim: [00:28:13] So yeah, that’s a great story. And I think it’s, I’ve had these conversations with some other people in co-working. I mean, part of it is the town, but a big part of it is, I think the premarketing and our pitch was, and the business thesis was these small lifestyle towns. This is going to be an incredibly important community asset. It’s not just a business, it’s a community asset, a hub, a place to connect, a place to have informed conversations that talk about the future. And so, I spent a lot of time telling that story. I was telling Jamie Russo when we were doing this podcast on this. So, one of the first things I did was I put a survey out via the chamber that said like, would you be interested in a co-working space? We’re going to open this up, yadda, yadda, yadda. What would you like an office dedicated to? Just to see if there was any market depth. Got a lot of response right away. And then I called up and contacted everybody that said they wanted an office. And I started to talk about, well, what is it that you want? What are you going to need? What do you do? All this kind of stuff. So about two years of creating the story, building the trust. I think marketing and this isn’t just coworking, this is a community asset.

Jim: [00:29:27] So, to answer your question, when we finally got open, which is about a year after we promised we would, people were a very excited about it and B really believed that we were doing something important for the community. This wasn’t just another retail front; this was an important community asset. So, when COVID hit. People said, look, no, no, no, you’re too important to go away. Keep billing me. You know, I’m not going to come in, but I want you to maintain my membership. And so, that lasted for probably 90 to 120 days. And then people said, whoa, this could take a lot longer than I thought. But we immediately were able to backfill because a lot of people had left San Francisco, took an airbnb out in the country. They worked in tech. They didn’t have good Internet out there. So, we kind of backfill with that. And then by September, a lot of people are like, hey, I can’t work at home. The kids are there, we’re home schooling, no bandwidth or whatever else. So, we limped along. The PPP was enormously helpful. It was maddening at the time, but.

Eve: [00:30:31] It was helpful, wasn’t it? It was helpful.

Jim: [00:30:32] Hugely, hugely helpful. And then we just kept staying visible. One of the things I was really most proud of, so when shelter in place hit and it was really ugly, we did a thing called small joys for sheltering in place, and every Friday we picked a local vendor in town and we would curate for 20 bucks some kind of an offering bag of coffee and a jar of granola flowers for Mother’s Day, whatever else. And we would, we’d put it on our site and we’d send it out to our mail list, and then you would come pick them up on Friday. So, people came in and they were like, hey, can we participate? Hey, you know, we love what you’re doing. It wasn’t a lot, but we raised like $10,000 for the all the individual business owners and we ran that for about 12 weeks. So those kinds of things.

Eve: [00:31:20] So you’re a strong marketer.

Jim: [00:31:22] Yeah.

Eve: [00:31:24] Yeah, that’s really fascinating. So, you got through that. And then the second project, which is maybe even more challenging, I think the town has a minimum lot area ordinance of 6000 square feet, is that right?

Jim: [00:31:39] Well, it has all kinds of things. This is a case of where people want what they want and what the codes say are two different things.

Eve: [00:31:46] Codes can be enormously challenging. But you designed and developed an infill project that is very much in keeping with the town and I have a feeling took a lot to get to that point because of the way that zoning codes are. Just talk about that. This is 12 residential living units with ADUs and a whole variety of features that I think are probably unusual for the zoning board to see, right?

Jim: [00:32:16] Well, yeah. It was. So, quick stats just for people that are into this stuff. 12 units, 1.2 acres. So, ten units per acre, all single family detached. We did it all with as of right zoning, which is kind of unheard of. And in California we have very onerous environmental processes, and we got an exemption because we met all of the criteria as infill. But I said a little while ago that we’re not a high growth town because two decades ago, in the town’s infinite wisdom, we passed a growth ordinance that limits the town to 30 permits per year. So, I’ll say that again, 30 permits per year. So now everybody’s screaming about how expensive housing is because it’s high demand and we’re only building so many new ones here. So, we had to deal with that. How do we get enough allocations to build that? How do we do with these minimum lot sizes, which had to be 6000 square feet?

Eve: [00:33:09] That’s insane.

Jim: [00:33:10] Had some prescriptive dimensions of 60 by 90, and then we had some environmental considerations. But it’s a classic cottage court where the 12 units are pretty much organized around a central green space. Cars are subordinated to the rear, kind of a neo traditional, where there’s two alleys that flank it. It’s kind of a square site, the site lent itself to it very well. And big front porches facing onto the green and fairly good private space, and all done in a contemporary farmhouse style. So, a lot of references to kind of home, I think in people visually but also updated for contemporary living. And the big thing with this project and I just came back from a builders’ conference where we won a bunch of awards for it and I was explaining to a panel I was on is so many developments design, especially in these land, more land lot, developments. They lay out the lots and then they just plop the houses into it that will fit on the lot. And in this case, working with Dan Parolek from Opticos Design, we designed the urban form. So how do we want the homes to mass? How do we want them to shape the green? And then once we did that, we lotted them. And so, the lotting plan is highly gerrymandered. And to the town’s credit, once they saw the urban form and what we were trying to do, they understood that the very confusing lotting plan was the only way we were going to get there without having to go through a rezoning and all this kind of stuff that would drag it out way too long.

Eve: [00:34:43] Interesting.

Jim: [00:34:44] You know, the end result when you’re in the space is is actually quite magical. And super successful. We came to market July 4th last year, sold it out in five months.

Eve: [00:34:58] That’s amazing. Because some of the features are things that people say will never work. Detached garages, the units face a little sidewalk, right. A little pedestrian area. And there’s shared green space.

Jim: [00:35:12] And this is a classic case of where the processes and sometimes the people. So, I’m at planning commission and I’m showing this in one of the commissioners says I’m not going to carry my groceries in the rain. You know, you’ve got to attach the garage. And I’m like, look I’m the developer. I’m taking that market risk. That’s not for you to decide. Does it meet code or doesn’t it? But they’re opining on stuff. And then the other thing we did was we painted them all white, and we used different. So, we use shingles and some lap on some board. So, there’s a very subtle kind of textural shade and shadow difference, but there’s a continuity and a harmony between them and, oh my God, you know, I mean just.

Eve: [00:35:51] The they opined about the color.

Jim: [00:35:53] Oh, yeah, white. Oh, I hate white houses. You know, I have one in my neighborhood and they’re too bright. So, no, you can’t do that. And fortunately, the other commissioners are like, you know, I think that’s going to be pretty elegant. So, there’s these personal biases that people bring to these conversations, and they’re not even trained as designers, so they don’t get it. But they’re in this position of power.

Eve: [00:36:11] And then I think some of the other big moves you talk about, I’m a trained urban designer myself, and I think people don’t understand why they love spaces. But that’s what urban designers are trained think about. You know, how to make good spaces. So, you talked about using the existing trees as amenities and framing views. So, there’s a lot that went into the public space design of these 12 houses. Little in the houses themselves. Right. For a little project. You had quite a list of consultants.

Jim: [00:36:43] Yeah, we did. We did. You know, it’s interesting you say that, but the space is so again, at the PCBC last week, one of the jurors was glowingly talking about that and saying, you know, the layering of semi-private to private spaces, the size of the space and the scale of the space. And it’s my background’s landscape architecture, so it’s probably a little less concerned about the buildings and more concerned about how to in the world. She said, a lot of great trees on the site. So how do you use those too? As one of the other, one of my favorite lines last week for the juror was the trees allowed you to cheat history. So, it felt like this thing had been there. I mean, you go out there, you feel like it’s been there for probably 30 years. It looks like the Presidio.

Eve: [00:37:23] Versus the trees kind of make my car dirty, right?

Jim: [00:37:27] Yeah, exactly. And so, to your question, so the people that have bought there, there was a conscious pivot. It was a very interesting study in human psychology. So, buyers came in, I think almost universally loved the project. They were inspired by it. They loved the way it looked. It was beautiful. They loved the trees. They loved everything about it. But then they very quickly came to a fork in the road, and they said, but I’m not really that social and I really don’t want people seeing me on my porch. I’m a little more private. Or they said, I love this idea and I love the fact that spontaneously I’m going to go out to the green and have a drink with some friends or I’m sitting on the porch and people stop by. So, there was a natural selection that occurred by people who wanted that lifestyle, and so they’ve actually made it happen. So, it’s fascinating to me how much the group has gelled very quickly, do things together, spontaneously, gather in the green for happy hour and all that.

Eve: [00:38:29] It’s almost like co-housing, but not quite.

Jim: [00:38:31] It is, yeah. Without the kind of somewhat cultish idea that at least co-housing makes people think of. I know it’s not that there is a thing, but it is. Or we call it intentional.

Eve: [00:38:46] Yeah. So, is it too early to tell what has worked well and what hasn’t?

Jim: [00:38:53] I mean, definitely some good lessons. I mean, the thing that I missed on that was I call it barbecues, trash and dogs. So, one of the things was keeping things very open and kind of granular. But in the end, we had to add a lot more fencing than I originally would have thought, because at the end of the day, people have small dogs, they don’t want their dogs running away. So there had to be fences around that. What do you do with the trash when this is a layout where every square inch mattered and we kind of missed that. And then the other thing is like, what do people do with their barbecues? You know, it’s like, don’t really want to put them on the porch and risk, you know, creating a fire under the roof. So anyways, there are a couple of little things like that. I think the green, the scale of the spaces is really good. We spend a lot of time like how big is too big? How small is too small? And I really feel like we nailed that really, really well. The subordinated cars, I think people again that don’t really fret over having to carry the groceries love the fact that the cars are out of you.

Jim: [00:39:58] My marketing line was you sit on your front porch, and you look at the green, not your neighbor’s driveway. And, you know, so it’s a very different kind of visual experience. So, the other thing that we kind of, we were trying to be very egalitarian, so the green faces the street, and it faces the river across the way, which had been neglected for years. And so, we spent a lot of money to clean up the river and make it part of the amenity. And now one of the challenges we had was everybody in the neighborhood thinking it was their park. So, coming in and having picnics or bringing their dogs in, but not being responsible for them and stuff like that. So, we had to figure out some fairly low key ways to say this is a private, this is people’s private front yards. You wouldn’t walk. You don’t want people walking in your front yard, you know, be respectful.

Eve: [00:40:45] It’s a wonderful story. So, let me ask you, what was your life before small scale? What did you do?

Jim: [00:40:53] You know, it was almost the antithesis of it. It was big. And when I, I don’t know if you saw my TED talk, but the TED talk was I spent my life doing big projects. I mean, literally around the globe, 25,000 acres in the desert of Nevada, Australia, 3000 acres, 10,000 homes. And I was into community design. Two things were happening. I noticed in every one of those projects, after hours, wherever I was, I went to the cool little nitty gritty alleys and spaces and kind of emerging areas, and that’s where I wanted to hang out was probably the most inspired. And then I would come back to these big master planned projects, and I’d say, how do we get that kind of level of what’s now called tactical urbanism, but place and grit and you know, often talk about we’ve gone from greenfield to grit as kind of the cool thing now, and it’s like, how do you create that? And I would work with these big developers, but they, yeah, they couldn’t rationalize it. Their funders didn’t get it, it never met. And so, I finally got to the point where it’s like, I believe in this. I’ve seen it, I need to try and do it. And my sister once said to me, like, why are you doing this now at your age? And I’m like, well, because if I get to your age and I haven’t done it, I’m going to be really mad at myself. So, I kind of went all in and you know, I mean, it’s the classic entrepreneur story. Second mortgage on the house, couldn’t find financing so went in all myself and you know the story, jury’s still out, but it’s been enormously fulfilling personally and to see the reaction and all the things as you said people tell you that won’t work and then you do it and they’re like, oh my god, why don’t we have more of this? This is so great.

Eve: [00:42:42] I can see you having a lot of fun, it’s inspiring for me. But I have to ask you a question now. This is like loaded. So, in amongst all of that you do, all these community projects, you know about equity crowdfunding, you know that it’s gradually taking its place in the capital stack, although most people still don’t know it. Do you think there’s a role in building communities using that tool?

Jim: [00:43:10] Oh, absolutely. I had no doubt. I think it has not found its stride yet. But I think we’re getting to, there’s enough consistency, coalescing in the conversation that people want something different. They realize, you know, California, the state legislature, there’s been a lot of pretty significant changes to help facilitate different and break through the NIMBYism and the barriers. And I think people are starting to recognize that unless they put their money where their mouth is, they’re not going to get different. And, you know, that’s not going to be everywhere. But I mean, where we are, again, we’re a fairly well-to-do community. I have a couple of partners who’ve invested in River House and yes, they wanted a return. Yes, they wanted to make sure they weren’t going to lose their money, but they were equally interested in doing something to demonstrate another way to do what we were getting and be a part of that change. And I think people want to do that and they’d like to be able to access that in a way that it’s not a $200,000 commitment. It’s Yeah, I’ll put 1000 and I’ll put in 2000. And we hear those stories a lot through the forums, the people who’ve done well, a lot of the times, entrepreneurs, they’re at a point in their life where they’ve done well, they’re well off, and they’re like, you know, I want to I want to help somebody else have the ride that I did. I want to support somebody. I like their energy. I like what they’re doing. I want to help. So, we need vehicles to do that. And I think, yeah, actually you were in Seattle when we did that panel with Kevin Cavenaugh, Lorenzo. And I don’t if you remember the guy who…

Eve: [00:44:51] Oh, yeah, I’ll never forget because Kevin, no one knew if he was going to actually show up.

Jim: [00:44:55] Yeah, yeah. Well, and then he had 80 slides and I said, you only have 10 minutes, don’t worry. And he was like, awesome. But at the, after that panel, the guy that stood up and said, raise his hand and gets up, and he said, look, I am from the institutional capital markets. I absolutely love what you’re doing. I believe so much in this. You do not want to talk to me because we will never get this. And so, there’s a lot of people saying, oh, we need to get the institutional capital. They’re never going to get it. And so, we need another vehicle and the crowdfunding and the people that care. But we do need to get along with giving people the vehicle to invest in their communities and take part in this. They also need to just become more educated about the relationship between the risks they create in the difficulties of approvals, of getting things done, and then how secure their investment is.

Eve: [00:45:44] Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the most difficult thing about this is with crowdfunding, you’re letting in a sea, 97% of the adult population who never had the ability to invest before. So, you have to educate them on the risks of investing, what it means to invest, the role they’ll play, and also real estate. How do you invest in real estate? It’s not a widget. It’s a different form of investment. I think the educational piece is definitely lagging. Okay, one more question for you, and that is you must have something else up your sleeve. What’s next for you?

Jim: [00:46:20] Oh yeah. Well really trying to say formalize the forums, they’ve been a work in progress. But I really want to see those continue to grow because they built so much momentum. And my dream is a really big kind of national seminal conference on small scale development. That’s 200 people in the coolest city that’s all around small you know, toying around with the idea Savannah, and really brings together, because there’s a lot of people working in this space and what’s already a fragmented business is further fragmented by everybody having their own little megaphone and not coming together.

Jim: [00:46:58] So that’s one thing. The other thing that I’m working on is a program called Small Coach. And a big part of my journey over the last six years has been participating in an entrepreneur’s coaching program called Strategic Coach. And it’s been really, really helpful in terms of not only tools around business and realizing your goals, but also balancing your life. But the one thing that I miss is it’s kind of industry agnostic. So, I’m trying to develop a curriculum for real estate entrepreneurs that is not just like raising money and getting through construction and entitlements and all that kind of stuff. But also, how do you manage your life? How do you set your goals? How do you embrace the fact that you’re an entrepreneur and make the most of it and really celebrate that? So, that’s hopefully we’ll launch here in the next the next couple of months. I’m hoping to get it off the ground in September.

Eve: [00:47:52] Well, this has been delightful. We should have really done two podcasts. I’m sure there’s a lot more to talk about.

Jim: [00:47:58] I told you I talk a lot.

Eve: [00:47:59] But we’re going to talk more offline. And thank you very, very much for joining me.

Jim: [00:48:04] Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I hope to see you in Nashville in November.

Eve: [00:48:08] Definitely will. I’m going to make it happen.

Jim: [00:48:10] Very good.

Eve: [00:48:17] Jim Heid has found his tribe. Slowly but surely, he is bringing together like-minded thinkers with his forums, his book and his real estate projects. His path from big to small is inspirational.

Eve: [00:48:39] You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music, and thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon, but for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Image courtesy of Jim Heid

Storyteller.

July 13, 2022

Madelyne Kirch is the founder of Sun & Moon Marketing Communications in New York.  What differentiates her agency is its focus on real estate – everything from corporate, commercial and retail, to residential real estate. Madelyne founded her company almost 30 years ago, in her basement with a $2,500 investment. She’s always focused on real estate, a unique niche and a much-needed one.  Developers are not schooled in marketing and generally need help. And her projects have ranged enormously in scale – sometimes working on a brand new project and sometimes working on repositioning existing space.

Madelyne sees a story in every project. “We are Real Estate Storytellers”  pronounces her website. Finding the story that represents the developer’s idea, the project goals, and the physical building is step one in her process.  Her secret sauce is her insider understanding of real estate. She is a member of industry groups, such as the Women’s Development Collaborative  and an active member of the Urban Land Institute. Her handle on the experience of being a developer, including the difficulties that come with it, help her effectively guide clients towards a meaningful and impactful story about their project.

Sun and Moon marketing has worked with numerous developers, but Madelyne says their biggest and most impactful project was the development of Hudson Square – a 30 year project that turned a previously undesirable and underserved neighborhood into the site of a Google Campus and the Disney headquarters. Madelyne knows the importance of real estate and its power to transform a place; the Hudson Square project did just that. Sun and Moon has been around for decades, and Madelyne’s method has withstood the test of time (and technology), but even in the age of digital media, she emphasizes the importance of incorporating real-life marketing. Marketing tactics change consistently, but Sun and Moon has displayed its ability to adapt to shifts in how marketing is done, helping real estate developers find success in their projects for nearly 30 years.

Read the podcast transcript here

Eve Picker: [00:00:11] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo, in order to build better for everyone. If you haven’t already, check out all of my podcasts at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co, or you can find them at your favorite podcast station. You’ll find lots worth listening to, I’m sure.

Eve: [00:01:17] Madelyne is the founder of Sun and Moon Marketing Communications in New York City. What differentiates her agency is its focus on real estate everything from corporate, commercial and retail to residential. Madelyne founded her company almost 30 years ago in a basement with a $2,500 investment. She’s always focused on real estate, a unique niche and a much needed one. Developers are not schooled in marketing and generally need help, and her projects have ranged enormously in scale. Sometimes working on a brand new project and sometimes working on repositioning existing space. Over the years, marketing has changed a lot, from hard copy to experiential marketing. Gone are the days of ads in a newspaper. Today, you need to find your audience in other ways. Listen in to hear how Madelyne thinks marketing real estate works best. If you’d like to join me in my quest to rethink real estate, there are two simple things you can do, share this podcast, and go to rethinkrealestateforgood.co where you can subscribe to be the first to hear about my podcasts, blog posts and other goodies.

Eve: [00:02:47] Hi, Madelyne. It’s really fun to have you on my show today.

Madelyne Kirch: [00:02:50] Hi Eve, how are you? Nice to see you.

Eve: [00:02:52] On your website, you say we are storytellers and those are the words on your company’s homepage. And what does that mean to you? Why do you say that?

Madelyne: [00:03:02] I’ve spent my career trying to encourage my staff to answer two questions about every project or every company that we’re marketing. And it really leads to a strategic perspective on how we’re doing what we’re doing. It’s never about just let’s make it a color or do we like this font? It’s really about what’s our story and how are we going to tell it? Every project has a story. Every company has a story. It may not necessarily be the story that the developer thinks that it is, and often there are components to a story that are hidden at first. But when you think of them more broadly or more strategically, they become, they become the forefront of how you engage who your audience is. We really start from a perspective, from a developer’s perspective, at a 30,000-foot level, they want to maximize return and minimize risk, and when it’s a for profit venture, they want to monetize either land or air. Those are the three components. How you define return is very broad. Not everybody does it for the financial return, although certainly many do it for the financial return both to themselves and to their investors. And so, we believe that when you look at marketing through a strategic lens, it helps you both maximize the return and minimize the risk because you’re asking a lot of questions in order to tell your story, and you need to start at the end before you begin. So, you ask questions like, who is this going to be attractive to? Who’s our audience? What action do we want them to take? Why would they do that? Right, you do a whole SWOT analysis. I see a SWOT analysis as not necessarily a financial component, but also a marketing component because it’s going to tell you how to tell your story and what’s important to it.

Eve: [00:05:08] Backtracking a little bit. Your company, Sun and Moon, is focused on real estate and economic development, which is maybe a little bit unusual for marketing branding. Very specific niche. And so, what led you to focus on real estate?

Madelyne: [00:05:24] My degrees are in journalism, political science and public administration.

Madelyne: [00:05:30] Oh, wow.

Madelyne: [00:05:30] And so, I have this very unusual mix of interests and I’ve sort of fell into real estate through the public administration part of it many years ago. My very first job was I was the marketing director when the Port Authority was building the north terminal of the bus terminal a long time ago. And they decided that they had 60 million people a year going through this bus terminal and a lot of shops that weren’t earning their keep. And so, they thought they should treat it like a shopping center. And I knew nothing about shopping centers or how to market shopping centers, but that got me involved with ICSC. And from there I got involved in all sorts of other facets of real estate. Yeah, I love real estate. I really, just as, its impact on the world I think is different than almost everything else.

Eve: [00:06:24] And it’s permanent for a start. Usually.

Madelyne: [00:06:27] My friends will tell you that I’m always saying, it’s always about the real estate. And when you think about your life, both your personal life and your professional life, there are very few aspects of it that don’t have some real estate piece to them. Where am I going to live? What city do I want to be in? How much space do we need? Is the job too far from the house? I mean, there’s just lots of lots of decisions that are real estate related, and I think that it’s integral to our lives. Also, the impact that real estate is able to have on our world. How do places feel? How do we make places? What do the buildings look like? What is the streetscape like? All of that has this very subtle effect on us that even people in the real estate industry don’t, they don’t necessarily relate to, but they absolutely feel.

Eve: [00:07:20] Yeah, I agree. So, what type of services do you provide to real estate developers or others in the industry?

Madelyne: [00:07:28] We start at the very beginning, really with a strategic approach and we will ask the developers lots of questions about, how do we get to their story. Very often we name a project, everything has an address, but the address isn’t necessarily always the best thing to call it. That’s the first part of telling a story is what is the name. We have a proprietary process that we go through and how we look at every piece of land and come up with a number of lenses through which it can be seen. So, we do a lot of naming, both of neighborhoods as well as of individual properties. We’ve also named companies. We’ve had cakes with our logos on them.

Eve: [00:08:09] That’s great.

Madelyne: [00:08:10] And then of course from the name becomes the whole branding process where you develop the look and the feel and the aesthetic that reinforces the strategy that you’re trying to get across and begins to tell the story. And then you take it through to a whole series of marketing tools early on in the project, the first thing you might see would be signage that alerts the neighborhood to what’s going on. We also do websites and marketing collateral, sales environments, leasing environments, the whole gamut, digital advertising and so on.

Eve: [00:08:45] That’s extensive. So, who are your customers?

Madelyne: [00:08:49] You know, our customers really span the spectrum from very, very large institutional investors through individual entrepreneurs. And it’s one of the things that we think helps us, because real estate is not a single source entity. It’s seen through a variety of lenses by different people. Very often we’ve taken the same building in the hands of different owners and done entirely different marketing campaigns because different people see bricks and mortar differently. The building hasn’t picked itself up and moved across the street. It’s the same building, but it’s conceptualized very differently. So, we have a lot of owners and developers. A lot of the great real estate families of New York are clients of ours, individuals starting out, people in real estate related service businesses across the spectrum.

Eve: [00:09:43] Okay, so what’s the biggest project you’ve worked on and what’s the smallest?

Madelyne: [00:09:49] So, the biggest project we’ve ever worked on. How you define big. Is it different term? Is it by dollars? Is it by square footage? Is it by number of units? But I would say the most impactful project we’ve ever worked on is the development of Hudson Square, the Hudson Square neighborhood in New York, which we worked on for 30 years.

Eve: [00:10:11] Oh, wow.

Madelyne: [00:10:12] With Trinity Real Estate, when we first started working on it, it was known as the Canal Varick Hudson area. A catchy denomination if you ever heard it. And the advantage that we had was Trinity is an institutional owner, as a church, they owned the land for 300 years, they weren’t going anywhere and they were very persistent. And over the course of three decades, we introduced the name. We introduced it to a lot of different types of audiences. We started out with commercial real estate brokers, then we went to retail brokers, tenants. The neighborhood was rezoned which interested residential buyers in it. And now, 30 years later, Google is calling its campus in Lower Manhattan, Google Hudson Square, and Disney has relocated, its office is building a brand new building at four Hudson Square. 30 years ago, no one would have thought that either Google or a company like Disney. 30 years ago, there was no Google, but that a company like Disney would even consider this neighborhood. So, real value was created through this decades long marketing process with a very committed owner who really monetized their land for social good. Right? The Trinity real estate is a church. The proceeds go to church related activities and support church related activities, and they did very, very well. Disney Net leased the land for $650 million.

Eve: [00:11:45] Wow.

Madelyne: [00:11:47] It was a worthwhile investment.

Eve: [00:11:49] Did you expect it to take so long when you started?

Madelyne: [00:11:53] I don’t know if I expected it to take 30 years. And there were certainly incremental victories along the way. Rents rose. Now, market forces were obviously in play as well, but the neighborhood became an accepted neighborhood. It went from being seen as a industrial neighborhood to really a place, and it became an accepted and even desirable and sought after place initially for commercial tenants and then for retail and residential as well. And it takes time. It takes time and it takes vision. One of my favorite quotes is a Japanese proverb that says Vision without action is a daydream. An action without vision is a nightmare.

Eve: [00:12:38] I love that.

Madelyne: [00:12:40] And I give Trinity a lot of credit to have affected that kind of change and created a place. But marketing was a very, very important component of it. Every year there was a line item in the marketing budget.

Eve: [00:12:52] It’s really interesting. So, then tell me about a tiny project that you loved working on.

Madelyne: [00:12:59] Tiny project.

Eve: [00:13:01] That’s, you know, that’s huge. The one you just described.

Madelyne: [00:13:05] Not all of them are tiny. There are smaller projects where a commercial tenant, for instance, might need to sublease space. And the tenant itself is not in the real estate business other than the fact that it has office space. And so, a commercial broker will look to us to help them create the materials that will bring that space to market. And that’s really a business to business, not a business to consumer approach. But it’s very important in those instances, not so much to position the property, but to organize the information to make it easy for someone to get involved.

Eve: [00:13:40] How is marketing real estate shifted over the last few decades? What are some examples of the most seismic shifts you’ve seen?

Madelyne: [00:13:48] The biggest seismic shift, as with other aspects of society, is technology. When I started in the business, really everything was print based and very person to person based, you know, advertising in the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal and the Los Angeles Times, wherever the property happened to be. Now, there’s very, very little of that, obviously, in print. And everything has gone to digital and to search and to SEM and SEO and those kinds of activities where you can be much more targeted, and you can have much more direct data to help you guide your efforts. I would say that the ability to target an audience has changed dramatically. But interestingly, person to person is still very important, and we find that we still do consistently over the years marketing suites, sales and leasing centers where you’re able to actually get someone to the building or in the case of new residential development to a nearby location, and really take them through the process as opposed to just the digital interface where you have to tell them, but you’re not quite sure how much attention they’re paying. So, the personal aspect of it and the ability to be there hasn’t changed at all. That’s still very much a part of the business.

Eve: [00:15:14] And we also learnt that through the pandemic, didn’t we, that we all burned out on Zoom and yes, person to person.

Madelyne: [00:15:21] You know, I mean, who would have thought, I guess it took a pandemic, but for people to lease apartments sight unseen from a broker’s camera iPhone tour was not anything that anybody would have thought of. But digital marketing in all its facets. There are now TikTok channels and YouTube channels, and residential brokerage was much quicker to interact with digital technology and video technology than commercial. Commercial took a little longer. But even now, during the pandemic, commercial space sort of caught up. And now all of the video tours and walk the room and things like that are all very much part of it.

Eve: [00:16:01] But some basic things like signage on the building, posters. They’ve remained, haven’t they?

Madelyne: [00:16:09] For individual properties, signage is still the single largest driver of traffic.

Eve: [00:16:16] Interesting.

Madelyne: [00:16:17] If you have no budget at all, the simplest thing that you can do is a well-placed and strategic sign on the property. If you have no budget at all, do that because ultimately people are going to be at your building and are going to want to be at your building. And the chances are that people already in the neighborhood are your best prospects.

Eve: [00:16:39] Interesting. And what’s like the hottest way to market right now?

Madelyne: [00:16:43] Today, digital marketing and video marketing, A.I. is becoming a very big part. We’ll see where the metaverse lands us in terms of marketing. There is now digital land has become very popular and we’ll see where that takes us. But I think as technology continues to have, and the Prop Tech sector is exploding really in all different facets, both from a property management perspective as well as from a marketing perspective, I’m not sure all of it is going to ultimately be successful. It will have a shakeout period. But in the end, technology is with us and will continue to be.

Eve: [00:17:18] Yeah, and it’s a great thing. So, you know, then there’s the audience too. And do they want different things than they wanted several decades ago? You’re marketing to a different group of people.

Madelyne: [00:17:29] Yes. The younger they are, the more experiential it needs to be. Whether or not we are creating that experience in a virtual format or whether you’re creating that experience in real life, the idea of the experience, which really goes back to the story. What’s our story and how are we going to tell it? And do we need to tell it differently depending upon the medium that we’re using? How are we telling that story in a virtual context and how are we telling that story in real life and how people interact with it? So, the interaction of both of those. Ideally, you want both you want to have a great presence online and you want to have a great presence in person. Not every budget permits you to do that. And even from a corporate perspective, where if you’re marketing a company as opposed to, or a service, as opposed to a property, you still want to have a very robust online presence. But it doesn’t take away, for instance, the need for face-to-face meetings or the need to sit down and break bread with someone. So, both of those things are still important.

Eve: [00:18:38] So, I’m going to shift to the developers. Your customers. Yes. What are some of your pet peeves?

Madelyne: [00:18:46] I guess probably my biggest pet peeve, and I understand this to a certain degree, is that development is very much about managing risk and they manage risk in every phase of the development. And so, they’re not willing to take risks in the marketing. And sometimes what we often say is we have a great concept, and the client will dumb it down, and that’s because of risk. They’re concerned about doing anything that could impart risk to the process. I look at it from the other perspective that sometimes taking that risk actually lowers the risk, and that if you’re willing to be strategically different and you’re willing to be out there in a different way and position yourself differently than the herd that will ultimately lower your risk. But often developers don’t see it that way. And there is a herd mentality and the guy down the street did it this way. And so, we’re going to do it that way too.

Eve: [00:19:43] Well, that’s a shame.

Madelyne: [00:19:44] Yes.

Eve: [00:19:45] And we end up with vanilla everywhere.

Madelyne: [00:19:48] It’s very hard to embrace new concepts. As I said, clients are concerned about doing that. The other thing that I would say probably a pet peeve of mine is that marketing is brought in too late in the process. It’s not really thought about early on, and often it doesn’t get the line item that it needs in order to do it the right way. And so, we’re always value engineering, I guess, the way a lot of real estate is. But if I could change one thing, that might be my preference.

Eve: [00:20:17] On the whole, how would you love to see the real estate industry change?

Madelyne: [00:20:22] That’s a very good question. I would like to see the industry be more holistic, think about its impact on the world. There are certainly lots of people who do do that, and I don’t want to slight them in any way. There are lots of very caring developers who really are concerned about the impact that they have on a neighborhood. And certainly, community groups will do their best now to keep them in check. So, it is a push pull. But I do think that everything from sustainability and climate change to affordable housing to placemaking, there’s just a broad spectrum of ways in which real estate impacts the world. And thinking about the world from a big perspective is something that we really need to continue to do.

Eve: [00:21:09] So one final question. What’s exciting you most right now?

Madelyne: [00:21:13] I would say that the economic development excites me a lot. I love to be able to work with cities to help them think about what they might be able to be and how to position themselves and market themselves to a broader universe. I like that a lot. I think it has the potential to do a lot of good. I think we have to be very careful about gentrification in that process and be sensitive to that process. So, we can’t just go in and have broad swaths of change, but there is also potential for tremendous benefit, and that excites me a lot.

Eve: [00:21:51] So, you know, the other thing I’ve learned about you is that you’re not just a marketing firm outsider. You’re pretty heavily involved in the real estate industry yourself as part of the women’s development initiative and also ULI where I think you’re now going, aren’t you the chair of one of their, what do they call them?

Madelyne: [00:22:12] On July 1st, I’m going to become the chair of the Blue Flight of the Urban Revitalization Council.

Eve: [00:22:17] So you’re really heavily involved in real estate.

Madelyne: [00:22:20] I am. I think that understanding the world from the developer’s perspective and from our clients’ perspective really informs our work and that if we don’t understand the forces that are up against them, that we really can’t do a good job in servicing them and providing them with the right story and what they need.

Eve: [00:22:43] Well, thank you, Madelyne. It’s been a total pleasure.

Madelyne: [00:22:45] Thank you, Eve. It’s been great being with you.

Eve: [00:22:51] You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music, and thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon, but for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Image courtesy of Madelyne Kirch

Design justice.

May 25, 2022

Bryan Lee, Jr. may have studied architecture, but he is by no means just an architect. Bryan’s philosophy and ideas are big, challenging and adamant. To address these ideas, in 2017, Bryan created Colloqate Design in New Orleans, a firm that uses design thinking to create a conversation or dialogue (thus, the  name of their firm) within the community to speak both to “collective values and ideals or reveal persisting inequity and injustice.” Everything is on the table. Sustainability, community history, immigration, transportation, food security, housing values. Bryan says, “Design justice is a foundational principle; it is not a design process, yet. It is an underlying framework for how to think about getting to the architecture.”

Interested in architecture at a very young age of ten or eleven, Bryan recalls, as a child, noticing the dramatic difference between the spaces and places of Sicily (he was an Air Force brat) and the streets of Trenton, NJ. Out of school he did a stint in an architecture firm, as well as two years as Place and Civic Design Director for the New Orleans Arts Council. But with Colloqate established, alongside the last few years of intensely heightened awareness of issues of racism and climate change in the U.S., his firm’s impact is growing.

Bryan is a founding organizer of the Design Justice Platform, and he co-organized the Design As Protest National Day of Action (hosting more than 30 workshops). Most notably, he was named 2021 National Design Award winner in the emerging designer category by the Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum. He was also a 2018 Fast Company Most Creative People in Business and a 2019 Architectural League Emerging Voice.

Read the podcast transcript here

Eve Picker: [00:00:06] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo, in order to build better for everyone. If you haven’t already, check out all of my podcasts at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co, or you can find them at your favorite podcast station. You’ll find lots worth listening to, I’m sure.

Eve: [00:01:01] Bryan Lee may have studied architecture, but he’s more than an architect. He launched Colloqate Design in New Orleans to explore big, challenging and adamant ideas about equity in the built environment. At Colloqate Design, a community conversation puts everything on the table. Sustainability, community history, immigration, transportation, food security and housing values. The end goal is an equitable, physical landscape. It’s a fascinating conversation. Listen in to learn more. If you’d like to join me in my quest to rethink real estate, there are two simple things you can do. Share this podcast and go to rethinkrealestateforgood.co where you can subscribe to be the first to hear about my podcasts, blog posts and other goodies.

Eve: [00:02:06] Hi, Bryan. I’m just delighted to have this opportunity to talk to you today.

Bryan Lee: [00:02:10] Yeah, wonderful. Thank you for inviting me.

Eve: [00:02:13] You have a really big, bold idea to design spaces of racial, social and cultural justice. What does this statement mean to you and why is it so important?

Bryan: [00:02:26] Yeah. I mean, the way that I kind of define culture is that it is the consequence of persistent circumstance and immediate condition, meaning there’s a long history that drives how culture is formed and it is directly impacted by how we’re currently living, which means that every space that has a connection to our racial, social, cultural worlds is significant in the shaping of our lives. And so, for me, when we think about justice in any of those spaces, it requires us to have a cultural framing. It requires us to understand a history of racial violence, racial oppression and racialized joys. There are there are joys that come as a by-product of the communities that are formed through moments of oppression. And so, I think recognizing those, not ignoring them and elevating them to a valuable asset within a design process, within an architecture, within an urban plan or urban design, allows us to have more just spaces that serve more people.

Eve: [00:03:45] I love that you talk about joy in there as well.

Bryan: [00:03:48] Yeah, it’s necessary.

Eve: [00:03:50] My parents were actually refugees and what always surprised me about them was they went through six really long, hard years in labor camps, but they always spoke about these joyful moments that, you know, were part of that community. Exactly. Exactly what you said.

Bryan: [00:04:06] Yeah. Even to that, I grew up and my father used to tell me he didn’t know he was poor until he went to college and people told him he was poor. And part of that is that, like, community is so necessary and specifically for marginalized or disinherited communities. We often form social capital and cultural capital together that allows us the currency to move through the world, and that is usually shaped by the moments that are created through joy, through those experiences that build connection with one another. And so, I find it utterly necessary for us to conceive of an architecture that responds to those joys or responds to those disparities, and acknowledges the fact that people who have had to create cultures out of violence or oppression or harm or trauma have spatial solutions to a world that is actively seeking to harm them oftentimes. So anyway, yeah.

Eve: [00:05:07] Yeah, my parents actually met in those labor camps. So that was a very, you know, and they were a long love story. So, it was it was a strange mix, as you said. So, your platform is called Colloqate. What exactly is Colloqate?

Bryan: [00:05:26] Yeah, thanks for asking. Most people don’t, so it’s nice. So Colloqate is a combination of two words and one formal word. So, if we think about kind of colloquial, the kind of informal or sophisticatedly informal use of formal language, whether that be written language, whether that be cultural language or spatial language is a necessary understanding. So, understanding that informality and how people use that informality to shape their space is significant. And then location. So, what is the informal language of a place? Right. And so Colloqate is really trying to understand those relationships. And then the term I found, the word collocate with a C, to be even more enlightening when it comes to the type of work we’re looking to do, because it talks about the sequence of words and phrases habitually juxtaposed at a greater frequency than chance. And for us, that is exactly what we’re looking at. We’re looking at the sequence of people in place habitually juxtaposed at a greater frequency than chance, where there are people and places and spaces. How often are those people there? Why are they there? What are the relationships that people have between those spaces? Acknowledging that they are unique to particular cultural, racial, social communities means that we can understand that frequency as an affirmation of the type of space that might want to be built in the future. So that’s what Colloqate means.

Eve: [00:07:08] That is what Colloqate. So, what services do you provide and why do you think they’re important?

Bryan: [00:07:15] We are a non-profit design justice practice, so our focus is a, it is a social mission to deal with projects that are around advocacy, around organizing and around design. And so, we provide services that fit within those three brackets. From an advocacy standpoint, we do trainings on all of our projects as well as we do trainings on a project-by-project basis or just for the general public. So, the intention then is to kind of create a wealth of knowledge for folks to move and move their practice in the direction of design justice. And so that’s part of the advocacy. We also advocate for housing rights, tenant rights. We advocate for community voice in projects. We are a firm that does research and works on projects that are focused on anti-Carceral spaces. So how do we kind of think about the abolition of space, not just as a way to eliminate a certain type of space, but as an opportunity to create new types of spaces that hold people with care and value. And so those are the types of things we do. And again, practically, we still kind of hold the standard scope of services. We do planning work. We do engagement work pretty heavily and a lot of organizing work.

Eve: [00:08:54] But I mean, it’s an unusual practice. First of all, the fact that you’re a non-profit is pretty unusual in the architecture world and the range of services is pretty unusual as well. What led you to use your training in this way?

Bryan: [00:09:08] I worked in the field in the kind of, quote unquote, traditional architectural practice for, I don’t know, 14, 15 years before leaving, going and working for the city and then expanding and starting my own practice. I think the thing that led me here, well, there’s obviously multiple moments along the timeline that shape and shift how you get to at any given point. But I think leave grad school, I graduated in 2000, end of 2008 right before the market crashed. So maybe a month or two before the market crashed. Yeah, there were no jobs for a significant amount of time. And so, I had to re-evaluate how I wanted to exist within the profession, whether or not I was even going to be in the profession. I didn’t know that there was going to be a profession for me to go back to. And so, or at least in the way that I wanted to. And so, part of it was taking a moment during that recession and reflecting on how I wanted to exist if I were going to exist in the architectural world, how might I do that? And so, I wrote down the things that that were important to me and thinking about some of the other organizing work that I had done in the past, whether that was kind of community organizing or kind of in the political space, I found that to be extremely vital to who I was as a human. And I found the architecture world to be very kind of necessary for me to kind of grow as well.

Bryan: [00:10:45] And so, I couldn’t, but I couldn’t figure out how to connect those two things. And so, what really led me to this is that I started a program or expanded a program called Project Pipeline here in New Orleans, Louisiana, in 2012 with a bunch of people, all of the names which I can’t name immediately, just because it’s a lot of people. But we started this program, expanded it to this idea around social justice, through design education. And so, we taught students across the city for six years, and the program still goes, I turned it over. But we taught them, thousands and thousands of students to think about their spaces through that lens. And the more and more we did that, the more and more kind of connected we felt in our communities through that work.

Bryan: [00:11:39] It made me realize that a) it was possible that it was easier to understand than most architects are kind of adults may lead you to believe. And then I had the opportunity to leave the kind of traditional practice and go work for the Arts Council of New Orleans to essentially work on place and civic design work. So, ground level work that was still architectural in nature or sculptural in nature. It was public art and community design. And from there I really found that to be hyper intriguing, in large part because the people who are engaging in those art pieces and those spaces were wildly different than the folks that you often see engaging in the architectures that I was building and that felt wrong. It felt wrong that that the communities I serve, the communities that I’m a part of were not, did not have access to the type of space that we wanted to create in other realms. So that was the driver. And once I left the Arts Council, I said, I can go back and work for another firm or I can give this a shot. And so that’s what we did. We started a practice and really wanted to kind of lean into that as a tool, lean into design justice as the tool to drive how we conceive of the architecture we’re putting into the world.

Eve: [00:13:10] You know, I find this especially interesting because I don’t know if you realize this, I’m an architect by training. And I’ve always thought that architecture training is perhaps the best training that anyone could get. We were trained to be makers. We make something out of absolutely nothing. Right. So, there’s this really incredible problem-solving path that you take from nothing to, you know, sometimes enormous projects. And it’s always been bewildering to me that more architects don’t take a different path because architecture, dare I say it, is a little precious.

Bryan: [00:13:45] It is.

Eve: [00:13:47] And it’s just such a wonderful tool. So, yeah, I totally get, I totally get why you went in this direction. So, when you do this work, how do you bring stakeholders on board to see the issues that you know to be true.

Bryan: [00:14:03] The way that we engage is first with the acknowledgement that there are three different types of outreach that happen. One is just a general outreach, which is, which is a communication tool that is often from a developer or an architect or a client to a community, oftentimes doesn’t have a lot of feedback, but it is an acknowledgement that something is happening. We try to avoid that pretty much at all costs. Moving into engagement, you often have some sort of dialogue, right? So, it is, there’s a feedback loop that happens with engagement. But if you’ve worked in a design firm, you often, you’ll recognize that it is often extractive because we don’t stay in those communities. We’re often in grab it, form relationships, and then we’re gone, right? And so that is also harmful. If you also on the other end of that, if you’ve ever talk to your community members after that process, you’ll hear from them that they feel jilted and don’t like that process over and over and over again. And so we tend to move ourselves more towards the organizing space, which is a means and opportunity for us to build power in communities through a design process. And we really bring this to a head when we kind of bring to bear that there is no better way to build community than through organizing one’s community around building a space. It takes an awful lot of time. There’s an awful lot of money, there’s an awful lot of money involved and there’s a ton of decisions. And so all of those things communities want some self-determination around. And if we create a process within the design of a building that or space that reflects the voice of those people, then not only will there be more investment into those spaces, but the spaces will reflect and be more present for the communities we serve.

Bryan: [00:16:06] And so the way that we do that just in general is a couple of ways we hire what we call community design advocates as a part of the team, so they become a part of the design team. They are they are not a focus group. They can serve in a focus manner, but their primary obligation to the project is to continue doing the organizing work that they were previously doing. So, if they were talking about tenant rights or if they were talking about cultural spaces throughout a particular neighborhood, their job is to, kind of, continue engaging with their community members around those things that they care deeply about. And so, in doing so, they have pre-existing relationships, they have pre-existing knowledge that we will never get, right. We can’t have it through unless we have those previous relationships as well. We just can’t. And so, can we relinquish some of our ego and need to hold power along every single step of the way and allow for community members to thoroughly describe how they experience space, how they think about space, and how they want to see space articulated, and then try to translate that. And our job then becomes translator rather than to present a series of drawings or renderings that may completely miss a mark. So that’s one way.

Eve: [00:17:39] I like the notion of relinquishing ego, which is probably very hard for many architects to do.

Bryan: [00:17:46] Yeah. Yeah, it is. It’s difficult and understandably so. Like, people don’t really fully understand how hard it is to be an architect.

Eve: [00:17:55] Yes. No, I think that’s true. I think that’s true.

Bryan: [00:17:58] So very difficult and the stakes are high. But anyway, the other two things is we create. So along with the CDOs, we create what we call a spatial implications document. And so, every conversation that’s had throughout the course of a project is tracked, and that might mean 30 to 40000 comments. And we tag and theme those comments. Those comments are then broken down into process implications, program implications and spatial implications. And then we talk with the client about process implications, meaning we can make the spatial suggestion, but if you don’t change a process, then the outcome is going to be the exact same. So that’s one thing. Programmatic Solutions. What activities are people kind of reflecting throughout the sets of conversations? So, we talk with community members again to kind of compare and reflect on the activities that people want to have. And then the spatial documentation is really just about the design team and how we reflect some of those other process and programmatic implications into an architecture, into the spaces we’re designing. And then lastly, we infuse what we call a design justice set into our standard architectural set, which just means that for everything that’s produced, whether it’s on safety, whether it’s on recreational space or restrooms, we create the themes, and it will reflect itself into the architectural drawings. And so, we tag and annotate every design decision that was critical through the engagement process and through the project management team’s process. And we tag those on the drawing, so we talk about the things and hold ourselves accountable to the things that the community said. And we attempt to say, these things are happening, these things are not happening, and here’s why they’re not happening. Right? So, it’s a level of accountability that will live on past the submission of the architectural documents.

Eve: [00:20:12] That’s pretty fascinating. So, I have to ask, how different do these spaces end up because of that process? If you sort of reflect and say, okay, if I were to go in and design this without this process, you know, how different would it look?

Bryan: [00:20:28] I don’t think it’s major. What I think is that there are I mean, I think it’s like a tone and intonation in someone’s dictation or speech to someone like you can tell when someone means something sarcastically or when they mean something genuinely. I think it’s that, I think the community voice is very much a tone and inflection in the architecture rather than large gestural moves most of the time. It doesn’t mean that it’s not those. Yeah, but, but so for instance, whether that’s finding the moments across an architecture that are, across a building that allow for participatory designs that might mean facade design, that might mean kind of internal artwork in a building, that might mean the community spaces are culturally reverent versus architecturally simple to create, structurally simple to create. So, it might mean that we have this, and I say we, can you create a space that thinks about prayer circles or freedom circles or kind of native. So, like, again, the types of spaces that are created may shape and reflect the cultural resonance. So that’s another thing. And then I would say the other things are really about marginalized communities that often pops up. So, when we talk about non gendered restrooms, right? So that is a touchy subject in every project that we do. But having those conversations brings to bear a lot of conversations. And so, while a client may want to approach it in that particular way, and we might as a design team, when we hear some of the religious entities who are a part of these spaces say, Well, while we want to make sure that other folks feel comfortable, we also know that our kind of religious background doesn’t allow us to operate in this particular way. And so can you also accommodate us as well? And so, it means that you shape the restrooms a little differently. You don’t have all kind of non-gendered restrooms, but you have spaces that other people can use based on their own principles and values.

Eve: [00:22:51] So there are other stakeholders like the city and funders and. What do they have to say about this process?

Bryan: [00:23:00] The city loves it because the city is, oftentimes is directly accountable to the to those stakeholders, to the neighborhoods. Right. Those are the people who are going to show up at the doorstep if they don’t if they don’t listen to them. So, the city views it as a tool to accommodate the conversations that they would otherwise not be able to have. I don’t often care about what funders have to say about anything. You know, I think mostly those conversations are wrapped around a, it’s choosing the appropriate clients. So, I would say I don’t care what funders say that are in opposition to to considering the voice of community. So, we wouldn’t work for them in the first place. But the developers that we often work with or the clients that we often work with are usually institutions or other non-profits who actively want to understand the impact of their work on a larger community. And so, they are they are pre invested in this type of work in the first place.

Eve: [00:24:10] So what kind of architecture would actively dismantle barriers and make buildings more equitable?

Bryan: [00:24:17] Yeah. So, part of the kind of continuum that we think about in architecture or at least in design justice reflects on what liberation looks like in this work. And so, what that really means for us is that we have to reflect and dismantle past structural systems that have implications on the current policies, procedures and practices within our own, within our own realm. So, we have to kind of think about those structural systems before an architecture can even come to be, because systems are created for a reason. They’re created so that the outputs of those systems are consistent, that they don’t have to worry about the outputs diverging too much from the standard. So, first things first is acknowledging and understanding those systems. The second thing is to make things fair or accountable in the present. So that really just means that we want to make sure that whatever architecture we produce has a mutual, a mutual aid about it. Right. Meaning that there are no private properties, even if there are, everything’s private, even if it’s privately owned, whatever property exists for a developer or a client or institution, it abuts or is adjacent to a partner, to someone else, to a community. And so, we thusly have a responsibility to those partners. The third thing is, can we create spaces that are fundamentally about future setting? And so, when I say future setting, that might mean that we have to rethink or recalibrate the typologies of space that are better informed by cultural, social, racial communities. So, meaning we acknowledge that redlining has had a tremendous effect on black and brown communities across the entire country, and it drives even current gentrification processes.

Bryan: [00:26:19] We also acknowledge that policies that exist in a lot of cities restrict the square footage of housing that can go on any given site, restrict the density within places. All of those things are often and were often developed as a means to negate or to push out black, brown, BIPOC communities more generally. And so, it really is both challenging those policies and procedures, but then taking that as an opportunity with community to redevelop or to develop new ideas about how we can exist in space. What new spaces should exist on the other side of abolition of prisons? Because it’s not as though we’re not still going to have issues and communities. And I don’t think anyone’s ever said that even in the defund world, it is always to say, can we create new spaces that serve our community a little bit better? When we talk about housing and affordable housing and we drive so much of our housing propositions on area median income, that negates the fact that wealth was stripped from so many communities for the last 100 years, 150, 250 years. Right. So depending on what timeline you want to use. And so, it means changing a policy around income so that we can actually develop a housing stock or a housing typology that recognizes that wealth discrepancy.

Eve: [00:27:57] And I mean, you know what the architecture profession is like. It has a very small minority population. Right. So, you know, given that, how do you see the role of racism and race as influencing contemporary architecture?

Bryan: [00:28:18] Yeah. I mean, I think it’s substantial because we are often conduits of power. We are reflecting the will and the needs of our clients and the will and the needs of those clients who have the money that’s available to build architecture at that scale is often conservative, is often coming from a different specific perspective. When I say conservative, not from the political lens, but.

Eve: [00:28:50] No, I, the industry is very monoculture and.

Bryan: [00:28:54] Yeah, precisely.

Eve: [00:28:55] And, in many ways beyond architecture.

Bryan: [00:28:57] Yeah. And so, I think that those, the values there are then reflected. We often say in our work that our values are validated through the spaces and places we design. And so, if a history of racialized spatial violence as it still exists, who’s to say that those principles of practice don’t still permeate through the architecture that we design? Because those are the rules. That’s the system that we’ve created. Even thinking about the kind of growth of modernist design in a way that and even super modernist design that that starts to think and postmodernism starting to think about an architecture that disassociates itself from its cultural implications means that you’re valuing an architecture that does not reflect other types of cultures. Right. Because it’s ornamental or it’s extra. And therein lies so much of what other communities who haven’t had the opportunity to shape their environments find valuable. I mean, we talk often about the reason that so many black and brown communities have a lot of murals and visuals in that particular nature. But we don’t have a significant home ownership ratio. We don’t have, we haven’t been able to control the wider or broader landscape of neighborhoods in order to shape and self-determine those outcomes, which means that we use visuals, we use art, we use muralism we use a lot of those other expressions to put a fingerprint on the spaces we live in. And so, when the architecture doesn’t allow for that, when the architecture doesn’t allow for a cultural resonance to be prominent, then those values are validating one set of groups over the other.

Eve: [00:31:01] So is there a little bit, a little tiny glimmer of hope for you? You see any glimmers of hope, like anything changing over the last few years that have led you to sit up and say, oh, that’s interesting. That’s a shift going on.

Bryan: [00:31:15] Yeah. I mean, first of all, you know, a lot of this work came to be through another program or work that we did called design as protests. And one of the core definitions that we use during those workshops is to say that to protest is to have an unyielding faith in the power and potential of a just society. It is fundamentally about our collective hope, and if design at its best serves that same purpose, we have no choice but to be hopeful in a future that connects and serves the communities we serve. So yes, I am always hopeful. I don’t think we have a choice. But I’d also say that the things that give me hope, the least of which is our organization still being around. I mean, I think we knew that this was going to be a very difficult pitch but turns out it really isn’t. A lot of people have been clamoring for this type of work for a long time, but the architectural world has ignored it. And to that note, you see more and more RFPs that are popping up that call for critical race theory or design justice as a part of their core evaluation metrics. And I think going from three years ago, one project in the northwest that was maybe $32 million, something of that sort. There’s probably $2.8 million or $2.8 billion worth of work over the last four years in the northwest. That is leaning more towards this direction, that is looking at critical race theory and that is looking at design justice as a core component of their work. Interesting. And it’s huge. So, I am hopeful in the sense that I see clients and institutions shifting and demanding more of us. And the more that that happens, the more that we will hopefully do the work to meet them where they need to be or where they are.

Eve: [00:33:27] So I have one more question for you. Actually, a couple, but this one is what do you like best about the work you do?

Bryan: [00:33:37] Yeah, I love that question. I love people. I love the fact that we get to connect and work with communities over and over and over again. It’s the best part of our job is working with, let’s say, people say stakeholders or end users. But what I love about it is that I get to be in community daily and get to grow with people. That is not from a extractive perspective, not from a position of transaction. Right. And to build those relationships is amazing.

Eve: [00:34:12] Yes, I can see that. So, one final question and that is, what is your big, hairy audacious goal?

Bryan: [00:34:20] My audacious goal is to fundamentally shift the way that practice standardizes engagement and organizing into the work. And by that, I mean, can we stratify the profession. A) bringing in new community members who historically would not have an opportunity to be a part of the design profession. So, creating a community design advocate as a general role on all projects across the board, it would be to create and, continue to create and build out the processes for engagement that make it, not just the processes but the tools for engagement that make it infinitely easier for all firms to do it.

Eve: [00:35:13] Because it is hard.

Bryan: [00:35:15] It’s very, very, very hard work.

Eve: [00:35:17] Very hard. Yeah. Maybe harder than designing a building, right?

Bryan: [00:35:22] It’s very, very difficult work. I mean, a lot of it is just so much research, it’s qualitative. And to be able to summarize and think about those spatial implications is a design process unto itself. And so, if we can find and build out the Autodesk architectural suite, that is something comparable to that, that allows us to create the tools for people then generally, will make it more tempting for clients to demand that work in their process. And if we can do that, you entirely shift the field. So that’s the idea. That’s where we’re going. And it’s happening slowly.

Eve: [00:35:59] Well, thank you very much. I can’t wait to see the end result.

Bryan: [00:36:03] Yeah, no problem. Thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.

Eve: [00:36:20] That was Bryan Lee, founder of Colloqate, and an architect pushing the traditional boundaries that the architect’s role into something far more significant.

Eve: [00:36:41] You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music, and thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon, but for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change

Image courtesy of Bryan Lee, Jr.

Net zero building.  It’s a boom!

May 2, 2022

“A mix of high-tech and old-fashioned energy efficiency tactics can deliver carbon-neutral buildings, right now. But the U.S. needs to pick up the pace” writes James S. Russell for Bloomberg.

Oil shortages are a hot topic since Russia invaded the Ukraine, prompting the International Energy Agency to release a 10-point-plan for cutting oil use. But the plan only focuses on transportation and overlooks substantial energy savings that might be found in the built environment. Buildings consume about 40% of our energy in the US, but reducing fossil fuels is still seen as a detrimental impact to our comfort. In reality, we could pretty quickly decarbonize by implementing some simple measures already available to us. These include better insulation, energy star appliances and more efficient heating and cooling. The technology sector has also provided us with sensors, controls, and advanced energy modelling.

Paul Schwer, is the president of PAE, an engineering firm that designs mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems for low emission buildings. He dramatically reduced the energy emissions of his own home by electrifying everything. And his company built a 58,000-square-foot net zero building in Portland through the use of natural lighting and ventilation (lots of windows that open), radiant floor heating, good exterior insulation and a solar array. Paul is convinced that the majority of buildings in the US are good candidates for retrofitting for energy reduction.

The high performing energy-efficient ‘Passiv Haus’ is the gold standard for new construction, achieving energy reductions of up to 75%. But even without following the exacting Passiv Haus methodology, energy efficiency can be accomplished through the use of freely available passive measures, such as natural daylight, sun shading, wide overhangs, sun louvers and natural ventilation.

But what about the carbon footprint or embodied energy of buildings themselves? The materials used to construct a building, such as steel, concrete and aluminum, are a large proportion of a building’s carbon footprint. KierenTimberlake, an architecture firm known for its innovative approach to energy efficiency, devised a digital tool to calculate the carbon emissions embodied in the manufacturing of an existing building’s materials which they intended to develop. When they compared it to how much carbon would be emitted by building a new net zero building, they found that it would take 186 years to reach parity. 

Embodied energy is one of the reasons that mass timber, or cross-laminated timber (CLT), has become so popular. Mass timber is more environmentally friendly as it’s made from small strips of timber, can be locally sourced and can replace carbon-heavy materials such as steel and concrete. US building codes will soon allow mass timber buildings of up to 18 stories to be built.

President Biden’s March spending bill includes $3.2 billion for retrofitting homes to make them more energy efficient. That’s a good start. But to achieve scale in the reduction of energy in the building sector will require much more. If all new buildings were net zero, as well as our transport vehicles electrified, we could cut our emissions dramatically by 2030.

Read the original article here.

Image of New US Embassy facade by Images George Rex from Flickr CC BY-NC-SA 2.0

Skylight studios.

April 13, 2022

Stephanie Blake is the CEO of Skylight Studios and an historian at heart. That’s what she studied at Yale, much to her parents’ dismay. They didn’t understand how she could leverage history into a career. But she has. In a big way. Skylight Studios has built a business on taking short-term leases on large, derelict buildings to transform them into venues, often for fashion shows, art shows and corporate brand events.  

They revel in enormously gorgeous and gritty vacant buildings. The sort of buildings that most people can’t reimagine to have any useful life today. 19th century post offices, millions of square feet of vacant commercial space and empty industrial buildings that all have a story to tell. Skylight Studios finds good use for those spaces, turning them into a branding campaign for their next act. What began as a small business creating temporary popups in unused spaces, has become a big one – with a non-traditional portfolio of venues, where temporary can mean a decade.  For Stephanie there is always a story that will pave the way from old to new. She calls it “intentional short-term real estate opportunities … reimagining the industry in the way coworking companies changed the way we use office space.”

The company was founded by Jennifer Blumin, in 2008 (during the recession, by the way). But when she unexpectedly died in 2017, Stephanie was then the company’s president, and she had to step up in a big way under difficult circumstances.

Today, Skylight has assembled a set of remarkable venue spaces in New York City, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and coming soon, in Chicago and Ontario. From Art Deco to Modern Warehouse to Powerplant Industrial. Today, Skylight works directly with major development firms like Vornado Realty Trust, Brookfield, L&L Holding and Atlas Capital Group, taking their unused or underused real estate and offering it to brands and studios for immersive experiences. It’s not just high-profile events, but also smaller economic development projects such the “Love, Bleecker” project, a retail activation project that Skylight did with Brookfield Properties, which drew shoppers via curated stores and events. Stephanie has also talked about the possibility of adaptive reuse in office space, something that has barely been touched. A fascinating way to approach marketing, Skylight projects not only benefit real estate owners who have vacant buildings, but it can draw attention to neglected architecture, neighborhoods, and local businesses.

Read the podcast transcript here

Eve Picker: [00:00:05] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo, in order to build better for everyone. If you haven’t already, check out all of my podcasts at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co, or you can find them at your favorite podcast station. You’ll find lots worth listening to, I’m sure.

Eve: [00:00:59] Stephanie Blake is an historian at heart. That’s what she studied at Yale, much to her parents’ dismay. They didn’t understand how she could leverage history into a career, but she has in a big way. Stephanie leads a company that revels in enormously gorgeous and gritty, vacant buildings, the sort of buildings that most people can’t re-imagine to have any useful life today. 19th century post offices, millions of square feet of vacant commercial space and empty industrial buildings that all have a story to tell. Skylight Studios finds good use for those spaces, turning them into a branding campaign for their next act. What began as a small business creating temporary pop ups in unused spaces has become a very big one, with a non-traditional portfolio of venues where temporary can mean a decade. For Stephanie, there is always a story that will pave the way from old to new. You’ll want to hear more. If you’d like to join me in my quest to rethink real estate, there are two simple things you can do, share this podcast and go to rethinkrealestateforgood.co where you can subscribe to be the first to hear about my podcast, blog posts and other goodies.

Eve: [00:02:34] Hi, Stephanie. Thanks so much for joining me today.

Stephanie Blake: [00:02:37] Thanks so much for having me.

Eve: [00:02:39] So, you run a really fascinating and innovative company known for creating intentional short term real estate opportunities. Do you want to tell us what Skylight Studios is all about?

Stephanie: [00:02:53] Yeah, you know, Skylight Studios, we consider ourselves to be a creative place making and non-traditional venue development and management firm. And I think the two businesses are really linked because about a decade ago we started, really longer now, during the 2008 recession to sort of identify creative use for underutilized buildings. And I think by bringing in really interesting events and experiences with some of the most creative brands at the time, organically, we created a sense of place and identity for these buildings that jump started development investment. And we’ve seen that only continue in terms of the way the built environment just can’t keep up with how human behavior and the sort of cycles of.

Eve: [00:03:45] And viruses, right?

Stephanie: [00:03:47] Viruses, yeah. Exactly. Yes.

Eve: [00:03:52] How does it work? How does the business work?

Stephanie: [00:03:55] We were founded in New York City specifically because in sort of an urban environment. And back in 2008, there were so many incredible buildings that were sort of either historic or purpose built that didn’t have a use in sort of at that time, and so we really focused on adaptive reuse and looking at buildings and seeing why are they vacant, how are they so underutilized, and how do we partner with the owners of those buildings to both generate revenue but also create activity that enhances the community and provides a canvas for potential future tenants. So, I think that’s really mainly it’s a function of partnerships with the owners of buildings, often historic and underutilized buildings and Skylight having a vision around what makes the bones of a creative canvas. And then, throughout the year, as we’ve seen starting back in 2008, with fashion being sort of at its height in New York, seeing some of the creatives like a Ralph Lauren or a Chanel or any of these guys who are setting the tone for interesting experiences, who also appreciated history and architecture and something that others might see as just a dilapidated warehouse and celebrating that and putting investment against these ephemeral experiences, and from that they would set the tone and media and tech would follow and they would want to also create experiences. So, from that, we feel like we’ve created the sort of luxury shared economy where for a building that is interesting and an interesting canvas, you can achieve market rent or greater by putting together the best of industries in an environment that isn’t set up for necessarily even having all the power and the restrooms and the things you would imagine you need in a traditional venue.

Eve: [00:05:53] So how big are the buildings or the spaces that you tackle? Is there any typical?

Stephanie: [00:05:58] Yeah. You know, I think for us we do look at larger spaces, but I think it’s not a typical venue because we’ll do it in part. The High Line was an amazing project for us working on still today with four Freedom Park, the Louis Kahn Design Park on Roosevelt Island. It’s really about, we often talk about the third place. So, yes, it usually is 10,000 square feet or greater just because the types of events and the creativity and the experience of a space for us, be it for filming content or events, does require a bit of scale. We are looking for high ceiling heights, which is the interesting part about when we say adaptive reuse. These purpose-built buildings, whether it’s power plants or warehouses or post offices or printing presses, they’re meant for production, and the ceiling height and the materials used allow for both a sense of strength and of soulfulness, but also just purely from production, if you’re doing something in a temporary way, you want to create an incredible experience and it helps to have scale to do that.

Eve: [00:07:12] Let me back up a bit. So, these are short term events and do you pick spaces and find partners to activate them with or do you find spaces and talk to the landlords about the potential or do people with vacant buildings come to you or all of the above?

Stephanie: [00:07:30] Yeah, that’s all of the above for us. While our events are short term, our engagement is not short term, even if it might be an interim use. Often it might be five years, seven years with a lot of these projects that are stalled and looking to be jumpstarted through creative activation and revenue and to gain interest. So, Moynihan Station is a great example of that. Thinking about the middle of New York City and Midtown, the post office that was the sister building to the original Penn Station was vacant for 30 years and counting. A significant portion, probably 10% of it was still an active post office. There were leaks in the ceiling, there were cobwebs and pigeons all over the building and it’s 2 million square feet that’s just vacant.

Eve: [00:08:19] Wow.

Stephanie: [00:08:20] And you needed $10 million to even begin to make it into something that a standard tenant would take on. The carrying costs were significant and we walked in and we lit up and it was the skylights and the nature of the sort of black resin floor where 80% of the mail would come across from Europe and it was black so that you could see the mail that would fall on the floor and you had these catwalks before there were security systems where people would sit up in these catwalks and this 60 foot ceiling and look and watch people sorting the mail to make sure that no one was stealing anything and it was being done the way that is expected. And to have that and recognize the creatives we work with, we move New York Fashion Week from Lincoln Center there because the designers that want to create these experiences that feel otherworldly, they really appreciate the history and also the nature of what that building was. Buildings aren’t built that way anymore. And so, for us, you know, we came in, we created a short term event venue, but it was over the course of five years and counting. And to this day, they credit Skylight moving New York Fashion Week, bringing through the Anna Wintours, doing things with, you know, Hermes and the Whitney Museum and Edible Schoolyard and all of these things just to bring an audience and exposure. And also, you know, we generated over $17 million and so for Vornado and related to them come in and see the investment and for them to restore the skylights in a way that originally, they thought they were going to just rebuild. It was just a very interesting arc to then also, as Vornado’s doing this $3 billion redevelopment Skylight has come back in, Vornado tapped us to think about how can we continue now that they actually have redeveloped and are launching? We have two venues that will be operating and we’re also the partner to think about interesting programming to help keep that redevelopment vibrant and the future of work and sort of what that can be to Midtown requires more than just the materials and an incredible architect to design spaces. You need that heartbeat of what actually keeps these spaces active and interesting and engaging.

Eve: [00:10:40] It sounds like your role is unexpectedly become historic renovation advocate as well.

Stephanie: [00:10:48] Yeah, I like that term. We often consider what we do to be urban archaeology because I think we’re sort of seeing these buildings, understanding how they were built, how incredible the bones are and the stories of why and how they were built and what they meant to the city and bringing them back into today’s context and through.

Eve: [00:11:12] Fascinating.

Stephanie: [00:11:13] Yeah, I think we have a real a deep appreciation for history.

Eve: [00:11:17] It sounds like it’s so just run through for me. What type of vacant spaces do you tackle? Like, how big is the range?

Stephanie: [00:11:24] Yeah. It ranges from, you know, 10,000 square feet to millions of square feet, I think, at this point we have a 32 acre district that we work with in downtown L.A. Obviously, the post office Moynihan was 2 million square feet and counting. Thinking about some of the parks that were brought into, I think that, you know, we’re working with Ford on the revitalization of Michigan, Central and Detroit. I think that a lot of these projects I think what I was starting to say earlier around the third place, you know, especially coming out of COVID, we’re very aware of the first place being your home, the second place being where you go to work and these third places are not defined for us as a culture, as a society. And I think they can be parks; they could be libraries maybe once upon a time they were the mall. And I think it fuses sort of entertainment with community and art and culture and music and the different things that bring us together. And I think more than ever, a lot of developers, landlords, cities are focused on how do you make sense of this third place? What does that mean for vacant retail, for the future of malls, for even the way people are questioning office and how and why and when we come together? And so, I think a lot of what Skylight looks at and the reason I think our spaces have gotten bigger and even more interesting is because it is what is the third place when you have a district, how do you think about the negative space, the walkways, the common areas, the outdoor environment that might be the quad between your retail. So, I think we like to think of what we do as not just being confined to a specific building or 10,000 square feet, but truly how do we think about the sort of master operations of a district or a neighborhood? And how do we connect the public space to the private space, to the retailers, to the SMB in a way that can be fused through intentional programming and experiences?

Eve: [00:13:28] So you really are urban design strategists. That’s really what it sounds like. How do you interconnect everything in the environment?

Eve: [00:13:35] I think we work with a lot of experts in different fields and whether they are urban planners or economists or the bid or the Economic Development Corporation or architects. And I think a lot of these experts help inform our activation strategy where we see so much value and bringing expertise to the table. But ultimately, I think what we’ve organically evolved into is to your point, that of these urban planning sort of activators, if you will, because I think that as we’ve seen between technology, these viruses, all the things in which has just sort of sped up the world and how we interact and our expectation of space and environment, the built world just can’t keep up. And so a lot of the experts and a lot of the things that are static and built can’t keep up. And so I do think our role is to think about how everything from in real estate, where everything has been about these traditional asset classes and these types of uses. And then when you think about on the flip side, the idea of urban planning and it’s meant to be built in a sustainable way and last for decades, but our behavior is changing quickly. So, I think it’s Skylights role to interpret and take in information and allow for a program that helps adapt and change and that that really is events and experiences in a way that maybe even five years or ten years ago, events were seen as a very superficial thing. But now I think it’s truly a fundamental part of our society and the development of the built environment.

Eve: [00:15:19] So the big question I have is, is does the ultimate post-event goal differ for your clients or you? I mean, do you have different end goals in mind?

Stephanie: [00:15:30] I think we do. But I think ultimately there is this concept of all ships rise with the rising tide and the idea of even there is a disconnect between a landlord’s goals and the retailer who or the tenant who’s filling their space but if you’re choosing to be in a space because of the neighborhood, because of the architecture, because of the design, because of the demographic that’s there, it works. And I think we’ve seen more and more a lot of brands and activations be a way that creates community. The goal for product driven brands is to create loyalty from their customers and I think honestly, a big part of Skylight has been finding that common ground between the city officials, planning, the police department, the fire department, the landlord and the brands. And I think there’s common ground to be found because when you create a great experience, it helps everyone. And I think there’s a pressure on brands more than ever to have a mission to do good in the world, and I think that falls very nicely in line with generating community and thinking about a neighborhood and that the experience is not just slapping up your logo and showing your new shoes, it’s the story. And that’s the stuff that resonates with people and humanity generally. And I think the storytelling through events is something that you can find the right thread and it can be very powerful to identify that common ground in terms of how are you playing a role in revitalizing this neighborhood and establishing community, and where does your brand story fit into that?

Eve: [00:17:07] So do you think your model can help to rescue the central business district, which is facing an existential crisis right now? Like we’re thinking about entire places, not just buildings, right, that are looking pretty vacant and have to really think about how to reinvent themselves.

Stephanie: [00:17:26] Yes, I do think it’s a big challenge and I think it’s very dependent on the buildings and the way a central business district might be set up for us we’ve had interesting experiences in Chicago with the Board of Trade Building, having these trading floors that are 30, 40 foot ceilings, 30,000 square feet, and when you have that, we could do interesting things, not just trying to repurpose ten foot ceiling height.

Eve: [00:17:57] Right.

Stephanie: [00:17:58] Old eighties offices. I think there’s different ways to think about Skylight being a catalyst for what is the future of some of this vacant office space and how do you still draw people to it? And if there isn’t the triple net ten-year lease, how do you think about why companies are bringing people together and can you create spaces that can be shared and still draw people to that space, which then allows for the other businesses that exist, be it the cobbler or the Sweet Greens or whoever needs to be patronized by the office workers. So, I think there’s some ways we’ve thought about that and depending on the physical bones of the buildings in that area, I think we can play a role in that. I think it’s different than the plight of retail and malls, but I think there’s some similarities there where I think just the expectation in the use of physical space is changing. And I think there’s been an understanding for a very long time that it is traditional, it’s one use, it’s a restaurant, it’s an office space, it’s a brick-and-mortar store that just sells what’s coming out of its inventory there. And I think the world is changing and I think entertainment experience work, all of that in combination with content creation and the digital footprint against the physical is an important formula for central business districts, because I think there’s an inherent challenge. I don’t think they can stay static and just be revitalized with the existing mix of types of businesses, particularly for some of the less interesting central business district where they don’t have a historic, beautiful building or they don’t have the bones, they’re very sort of built for what was meant to be there, which is you have your cubicles, you have your office, you have the smaller retail down below, and I think with that, it’s taking a more holistic view. I think that’s also a big thing we’ve seen that can be a factor is how do the landlords come together? Like what’s the role of the bid? Or does a landlord come in and swoop up a significant portion of real estate so that they have a more cohesive approach to the tenant thing, to the community, to what’s happening there? I think we’ve seen that be a pretty big factor in where even where Skylight can make a difference or not.

Eve: [00:20:24] You were involved in the remaking of Bleecker Street, which sounds really interesting because I think there were financial aspects for how that street came back that also play a really big role. So that that was five blocks, right, a five block street that was in pretty bad shape. What happened there to bring it back?

Stephanie: [00:20:45] Yeah, I think that’s a great jumping off point because it was Brookfield coming in and purchasing a number of those storefronts and providing that sort of overarching opportunity to not just have one storefront but multiple across these few blocks. And I think Bleecker Street was always, in terms of the corridor and the West Village and having this sort of sense of being a charming place where you have discovery and surprise and delight, as it became more successful, and landlords saw they could increase rents and they could take the stores that could pay top dollar and Fifth Avenue and put them there. You know, the community and the neighborhood, it was disconnected with its identity.

Eve: [00:21:32] No more surprise and delight, right?

Stephanie: [00:21:35] No more surprise and delight, exactly. And so, I think as vacancy increased and it was recognized that these stores, even the big box, the one the ones that were very well resourced, it didn’t make sense for them to stay open. It made more sense for them to even hang on to their lease, but not to staff it, which is a crazy challenge. And so I think Brookfield really saw an opportunity as place makers and part of that sort of ethos to shift that and take a chance, and so I think by taking five storefronts and working with a firm like us, it was very much to think about not just filling the stores, but also how do we create sort of a sense of community and programming on that street to bring back the legacy of what Bleecker was to the beatnik poets, to the days of Kerouac, to the music, to all of those pieces. And think about also what is the future of retail and how do you take some of these digitally native brands and give them an opportunity? For Skylight I think we were very thoughtful around even thinking about mentorship. So, the stores that had survived and that were there, why did they survive and how can you create a community and a platform between these digitally native brands and those that had been there that were really based in brick and mortar and have connectivity? And it was successful in that, it became self-sustaining. So, once we connected these different brands with one another, and I think that’s where the special sort of connection happened, was just not only to be thoughtful about who you were trying to place there, but also how did they jive with the existing stores there? And how do you create a program for programming and experiences and activation that allow these brands and companies to get a jump start in terms of seeing how programming on the street and doing things together can actually drive traffic and sales. And then once Skylight, once we set that program, they got it and they were able to continue that level of programming to today, and I think that’s been a huge success for them.

Eve: [00:23:49] It sounds like a really interesting model that might be used in other places. You know, as we see a lot of vacancies in in retail strip districts, main streets.

Stephanie: [00:23:59] Yeah, I think it’s definitely the West Village is a really you know, we had a lot to work with. I think when you think about some of the other districts, I do think community and a platform that really creates a shared sense of responsibility and also a shared customer or shared approach because I think that there does need to be some structure, even though everything can and will and should be hyper localized, I do think there’s a formula around how to give tools and resources to these sort of retail districts and help them move into a space where they can meet the consumers the way that the landscape is changing.

Eve: [00:24:42] So what about big tech? Have you worked with Big Tech at all and what are they trying to accomplish?

Stephanie: [00:24:51] Yeah. I think, you know, we have worked with all of the big tech. And I think it’s really interesting to see their emphasis on short term experiences and being able to sort of experiment and build on proof of concept. I think similarly to how we were just speaking about the built environment not keeping up, I think Big Tech is aware of a lot of what they’re doing digitally, and in the cloud, but I think ultimately they recognize that we’re human beings with bodies and need to also come together around what big tech is doing. And I think whether it’s Netflix, right, they are content platform, at the same time, I think the number of experiences that they’ve launched in person shows the value that they see in creating loyalty and experiences around their shows and connecting fans with one another through physical experiences. I think similarly in the work we’ve done with Meta and with Google and Amazon, events foster these moments that are memorable, that I think as humans, nothing can be replaced with what you experience online, with what you might experience in person, and so I think creating a level of engagement and identity, I think Big Tech is really aware of the importance of events and experiences and the in-person value against the platforms that they’ve created in the digital space.

Eve: [00:26:34] Is there any backlash to brand bankrolled community space and how do you engage a community that’s already there?

Stephanie: [00:26:44] Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think that ultimately, as I’ve seen, you know, even sitting in my small city that I live in now, I sit on the advisory committee to city council on setting the general plan for the next 20 years, and cities and politics is very, very slow and hard to get things done. I think the beauty of some of these bigger brands with the right intention is that they can be these 21st century patrons of community, of the arts, of these spaces. I think there’s a lot of ways that Skylight has structured things to allow for the sort of VIP, the product launch, but then also community programming and educational programs that come from that. And I think there can be the same level of investment that gets amortized over the course of a couple of weeks, where initially there is this big experience that is for their top clientele or for the creators that are part of their network and all of that. And then to think about that same build and that same experience and how to translate it. I think there’s also a lot of ways that we look at a full calendar year or five years of a project where these brands come in and they are the ones paying and subsidizing for the community driven programs. So, if you’re thinking of a lot of our model at Skylight, is this sort of lower frequency, high caliber where you have maybe 25, 30% of the calendar year filled with the stuff that provides that revenue stream and also provides the investment to then work with the community. And I do think that there is this focus on an overused authenticity or honesty around what you’re doing as a brand and as a developer and there’s so much more of a spotlight, even from the community, to have a voice and what that looks like. And so, I do think generally, yes, gentrification is not going to go at any time, you’re redeveloping, you’re doing something. But I do think there’s a way to be really thoughtful around the brands, what they’re doing, how those dollars get reinvested and creating a place for the community and continuing to work with the existing organizations that have been a part of that community, the artists, the various non-profits that have played a role in whether it’s education, the schools, all of that to integrate in a calendar that does feel like it’s addressing all of the different parts of a community.

Eve: [00:29:18] Little authenticity. So, what’s your story? I mean, how did you get from Yale to here?

Stephanie: [00:29:27] Um, you know, I was a history major, and I think I’ve always had an appreciation. What?

Eve: [00:29:34] Yeah, I said, well, that fits the history, Major.

Stephanie: [00:29:40] It does it. And it’s so interesting because I could have never predicted from being a history major at a liberal arts school that this would become sort of my my path. But I did, and my parents actually, they are they grew up in Jamaica. They’re immigrants who sort of really self-made but felt really strongly that history was not a super useful degree. And when I was graduating and I was offered a job at Google, that was a great opportunity, even though I didn’t understand, I mean, Google explained that they don’t hire people that necessarily have a tech background or know what to do in this sort of framework but they just want smart people who can think, but I think my parents were very surprised and excited that that was a transition from history major. And I think being at Google, it was an incredible environment to learn a lot and to understand the tools that are being used and the sort of digital space and sort of the software and the. For me, it felt so intangible. But to understand how this platform was created around something that I couldn’t touch, see, feel or really understand, and I think I struggled with that, even though I was really grateful and excited to be part of something at a time. You know, this is 2005 where it was changing rapidly, and it did feel like it was truly the pioneering thing that was changing the world and being around other people who were so smart and innovative. But I think I always knew that being in a physical space design, how the built environment really affects your mood, it affects how you connect with people. It’s just end of the day, I just I feel so much that we’re physical beings and the built environment is a really important piece of how we see the world and how we connect with one another and so, it was just an interesting opportunity that a good friend of mine who was at Google said, Hey, I met this woman who’s doing this interesting thing in this warehouse and we were going to do something there for YouTube. At the time, a YouTube had just become a part of Google, and I met with them, and one thing led to another and I helped think about how space and the creative nature of a lot of these companies building things in the cloud and how that revenue stream can really help with the revitalization. And I think that at the time it really wasn’t more than thinking about vacant space and creative experiences and having a revenue stream that could help float these spaces in the interim pay for offset the cost of just the carrying costs. And I think it really evolved into understanding the power of these types of experiences, the way that these big companies thought differently about short- and long-term investment in space and the value of that against saturation of the digital space.

Eve: [00:32:37] That’s interesting.

Stephanie: [00:32:38] And I think today it’s interesting to see it in the way that I can see real estate, almost as in my head. It’s very bizarre, but I do see it almost as like the search function of you have your ads on Google and they enable the search platform. I think there’s a lot of controversy of how much can you tell between ads and the actual search results these days but, I do think there’s a lot of value in thinking about, to your question earlier, how these big companies and brands can affect the quality of the built environment and how they can help fund that shift, and I don’t think that the traditional model of just the landlord tenant relationship across all of these spaces where they are purpose built for one tenant and one use is the future. And so I think it’s interesting to apply some of the ways that I think being at Google in those sort of early days of my career and seeing how they were thinking so differently about this sort of space in the cloud could be applied to the built environment.

Eve: [00:33:42] So I’d love to know what services you don’t provide yet that you’re thinking about or how you’d like to grow this company. Because it seems like you must be getting bigger pretty quickly. What are you thinking about? Where else can this go?

Stephanie: [00:33:57] Yeah, I think the primary use of our portfolio these days is twofold. It’s really offering location based, interesting environments for film and content, and that’s often sort of the easiest way to go into. We have this 800-acre active steel manufacturing plant off of Lake Ontario or the power plant sitting on the Pacific Ocean in Redondo Beach. And that’s something that I feel with the amount of dollars and the craze around the white-hot market that is studio, there’s still a significant amount of content and film that’s done outside of the studio. And so, I think identifying these really amazing assets for as film and content locations is something that I think could grow very quickly for us, especially because you can repurpose the workforce. The workforce that was part of the steel manufacturing plant can be the workforce to make this a content environment. And so, I think that’s been really interesting and I think offers up a lot of different environments across the world for Skylight to go into. And I think additionally thinking about this place and Skylight being the operator of the third place, I think there are so many amazing historic buildings and spaces, museums included, who are starting to struggle to come into their identity as the world is changing and technology is changing, and all the immersive experiences are all of the sort of trend. And how can Skylight identify how to increase revenue streams and direct dollars, given that a lot of the biggest brands spending the most money on these creative experiences trust our vision. And so in my ideal world, we would look to identify existing businesses even that we can help amplify and add to not just these sort of underutilized buildings and I think that’s a huge opportunity for expansion for us, is to take some of the trends where we see whether it’s Netflix or Google or these companies creating experiences, how could we layer them into existing business models and existing uses like museums in a way that museums have been so thoughtful and evolving also and doing very creative exhibitions and installations. But I think the dollars I think we could help bring the dollars and connect the dots in a way that hasn’t been done yet.

Eve: [00:36:20] It sounds fabulous. And I thank you very much for joining me. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Stephanie: [00:36:25] Well, thank you so much for having me. It was fun to talk about.

Eve: [00:36:43] Buildings is branding, buildings to tell stories, buildings to make places. Skylight studios take storied and important buildings and reinvents their future quickly while the expensive and permanent redevelopment process churns on in the background.

Eve: [00:37:18] You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at our website RethinkRealEstateForGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music, and thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon, but for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Image of Stephanie Blake by Allan Zepeda

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